Episode 164: Leadership or Passivity? Rethinking Abram’s Decisions (Genesis 13 Study)

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Today Counts Show Episode 164

Preview

Matt Martin:  I’ve seen church planners leave a church and go five miles down the road and then, “I feel like God is–” No, it’s well watered. Yeah, it feels like it’s going to work. And I’ve seen a lot of them–

Jim Piper:  I probably did the same thing. “I want this, I want that.”

Matt Martin: Well, and you think you want it now. Abraham was willing to play the long game. He had had an encounter with God that was so very real that it caused him to–

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Genesis 13 and Abram’s Story

Jim Piper: Hey everybody, you have found the Today Counts show. Glad that you have joined us. The Today Counts show, we called it that because we believe that every day counts, that God has given us a day and that day should be embraced. And it also is planted into our tomorrow and the day after that and the day after that. We’re talking about life and leadership. In this particular episode, we are walking through the biblical book of Genesis. And we find ourselves I believe it’s in Chapter 13 right now. You will find all kinds of leadership lessons and life lessons that come through this. But first, let me say hi to everybody. Matt, Gary, Winston, how are you guys? Glad you joined me today. Hello.

Gary Harpst: Yeah. Doing great. Warming up in Ohio.

Jim Piper: Yeah, we got one in Ohio, two it looks like in San Antonio, Texas, and the other in Spring Branch, Texas. So here we are. We’re picking up in Genesis 13. I’m glad the four of us are back together again, I think it’s been a while since all four of us have been here. I’m looking at Genesis 13, verse one reading out of the NLT, which stands for New Living Translation.

It says, “So Abram left Egypt and traveled north into Negev along with his wife and Lot and all they owned.” Lot is a name. His wife and Lot. “Abram was very rich in livestock silver and gold. From the Negev, they continue traveling by stages toward Bethel and they pitched their tents near Bethel and Ai,” some pronounce it that way, “where they had camp before. This was the same place where Abram had built the altar, and there he worshiped the Lord again.”

On verse five, it says, “Lot, who was traveling with Abram had also become very wealthy with flocks of sheep and goats, herds of cattle, and many tents. But the land could not support both Abram and Lot with all their flocks and herds living so close together. So disputes broke out between the herdsmen of Abram and Lot. At that time, Canaanites and Perizzites were also living in the lands.” Sounds like diseases, does it?

Perizzites. Perizzites sounds like parasites. “Finally, Abram said to Lot, ‘Let’s not allow this conflict to come between us or our herdsmen. After all, we are close relatives. The whole countryside is open to you. Take your choice of any section of the land you want and we will separate. If you want the land to the left, then I’ll take the land on the right. If you prefer the land on the right, and then I’ll go to the left.”

I think I’m going to read the whole chapter because there’s a lot of good stuff to talk about. Verse 10 says, “Lot took a long look at the fertile plains of the Jordan Valley in the direction of Zor. The whole area was well watered everywhere, like the garden of the Lord, or the beautiful land of Egypt.” There’s a note here that says, “This was before the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.”

“Lot chose for himself the whole Jordan Valley to the east of them. He went there with his flocks and servants and parted company with his uncle Abram. So Abram settled in the land of Canaan and Lot moved his tents to a place near Sodom and settled among the cities of the plain. But the people of this area were extremely wicked and constantly sinned against the Lord.

After Lot had gone, the Lord said to Abram, ‘Look, as far as you can, as far as you can see in every direction, north and south, east and west, I am giving all this land as far as you can see to you and your descendants as a permanent possession. And I will give you so many descendants that like the dust of the earth, they cannot be counted. Go and walk through the land in every direction for I’m giving it to you.’

So Abraham moved his camp to Hebron and settled near the oak grove belonging to Mamre. There he built another altar to the Lord.” And folks, this comes right after chapter 12 tells us that a famine in Canaan kind of chased Abraham and Lot and all their associates into Egypt. And you might remember, well, whether you’re with us or not, that didn’t turn out to be a very good thing. But yet they still came back with a lot of riches.

Debating Abram’s Decision to Leave

All right, guys, so let’s get started. I’m going to start by throwing this out to you. Did Abraham really need to leave in the first place? Yes, I know that the Bible says that there was a famine. In fact, the NLT kind of says there’s a famine so he had to go. But I’m still thinking that was his thinking that he had to go. I’m not certain that he had to leave. I know there was a famine, but I don’t know. What do you guys think?

Matt Martin: I guess I haven’t been here in a minute. So you’re going to just wait and see if I talk.

Jim Piper: We’ve been missing your voice.

Matt Martin: Oh yeah. Yeah. I appreciate that. When we started this, you told me it was just like, we were sitting around having coffee around the table. I’ve missed a few coffee chats here. I’m glad to be back. It’s interesting. Did he have to leave Egypt? You know, I’m with you. I think that point could be to debate and conversation. I think there may be something to– I know we’ll get there. We jumped to the end of the chapter though. Could it be that some significance? God wanted him standing in a certain place when he promised everything to him and maybe that not being in Egypt.

Could he appreciate what– We all know the parallel of Egypt and throughout scripture, but could God allow him to experience what happened in Egypt and that come along with him so that when he stood in the place where God would promise him he would be ready to receive? That’s one thing that comes to mind for me there.

The short answer to “Did he have to leave Egypt?” I think we make a lot of decisions when we get hungry. Desperate people do unique things. And could there be a sense of desperation that had taken over a little bit? Because even when you find they got to the good land, and I have some comments as you were reading through it, I was making notes, things that were coming to me. I mean, their herdsmen couldn’t get along on good land. Imagine how difficult it was on famine land to try to get along.

So he may have just been, “We gotta get out of here before the famine’s here. We’re going to kill each other before the famine kills us.”

Gary Harpst: Was that your question, Jim, whether they really needed to split apart, Lot and Abraham?

Jim Piper: No, my question was, the latter part of this chapter, God is repeating himself to Abram, it’s the exact same promise that he gave him before. Almost like the way I kind of took it is almost like, all right, let’s try this again. You know, I get and then and then they split. Now, I don’t know, it’s conjecture. And they did come back with more than what they went with, which is interesting to me as well.

What I love about the story of Abram, you guys, is that he clearly was a leader. He was clearly a man of faith. But you get this feeling, at least I get this feeling that when he got back from Egypt, he was a different Abram than he was when he went into Egypt. Even when we make bad decisions, let’s just say it was a bad decision, or let’s just say it wasn’t a bad decision. God wanted to take him through a famine, right? In either case, it was a difficult time.

We don’t like difficult times. But as I read through this, it sure seems like a different Abram, which we’ll talk about in a minute. It seems more mature. Matt said, with some humor, we all do desperate things when we’re hungry. So he went, but he might have been thinking like a leader too. “I got to save my family from famine.” And if God was silent, which often he is when we go through difficult times, that’s been my experience. I often when I need to hear him or want to hear in the most, he can seem silent. So I do what I can.

He goes. Then, as we recall in chapter 12, He gets his wife in trouble. He gets himself in trouble, he gets the king in trouble. He uses a foreign king to chastise him and shoot him. Yet he comes back with more riches than he went with. I think about the difficulties of being a follower. We have these terms in our culture that says that sometimes we don’t conquer, we don’t win because we let the closed door stop us and we need the faith to knock the door down.

And then on the other hand, we have talk in our culture that God opens doors, God closes doors. And it’s sometimes hard to know, isn’t it? Am I quitting? Am I giving up? Or did God close the door that he didn’t mean for me to walk through? I mean, do you guys get clarity on that?

Gary Harpst: I’m in the middle of one of those right now. So I know exactly what you’re talking about. Are we allowed to ask questions too, or is it only you, Jim?

Jim Piper:  I thought we’re having coffee.

Gary Harpst: Well, I got a question. You know, what is the significance of this phrase, “And there Abraham called on the name of the Lord.” It’s a phrase that’s used frequently in the Old Testament. Does it convey an act of worship that’s different than sort of day-to-day interaction with God? In this case, it’s mentioned in context of the altar, I think.

Jim Piper: Yeah. I would love to take a stab at that from my own experience. I find that I talk about God a lot. And I talk about God with people who are not necessarily people of faith, and I talk about God with people of faith. There is a conscious assumption that I make is that God is listening in on the conversation. In a sense, I’m talking about him being an earshot if you follow my human analogy. But then there’s times, like I’ll talk to my wife, “Well, I’m not sure what God is doing here,” as if I can say that without God hearing. Right? And so I’m kind of like, “I don’t know what you’re doing.” But then there are times where I just make it really direct and clear. “God.”

Gary Harpst: What are you doing?

Jim Piper: “What are you doing?” It’s funny that you asked that question, because that thought came through my– It was almost like there’s comma, comma, colon, semicolon, and then there’s an exclamation mark when he addresses. Of course, for forever in my life now, whenever I read the phrase built the altar, I’ll remember what you taught us Gary about the uncut stones. That will stick with me forever. Manmade versus God made, I guess. I don’t know what the right term is for there.

I also thought it was not really humorous anymore. And I guess I would have saw it as humorous many years ago, but it’s kind of sad. So you know, they’ve come back and they’ve got plenty. As Matt said, if they can’t get along with plenty imagine– It’s crowded, but they got plenty. What’s it like when we don’t have plenty? That’s a test.

Abraham’s Leadership Qualities

Matt Martin: Going to verse eight, one of the things that when you were reading it three the first time, Jim, is Abraham said a lot, let’s not have any quarreling between you and me or between your herders and mine for we are close relatives. You said, and I believe it, Abraham or Abram here is a great leader. When we are leading, culture matters and how we lead people matters.

I will pull any leadership concept out of scripture. I will not ever force one into scripture though. But when you look at this, Abraham knew as a leader to fulfill what God was doing in him that he had to– Because culture is about protecting the space, if you would, and how we operate in the space. He knew that if he allowed Lot and Lot’s herdsmen to continue the quarreling and the bickering.

Now that doesn’t mean Abraham’s guys weren’t doing it too. I mean, this isn’t one side. The scripture doesn’t explain that. But Abraham was able to discern what it was and make a decision on it. And as a leader, that is a big part of it because we can get consumed with bigger is better because imagine together, man, they could accomplish a lot. They could make a lot of it.

I mean, they came back. As you said, when they came back, they’ve become very wealthy in livestock and silver and gold. There could be a sense of maybe Lot was riding his coattails. Maybe Lot was a pretty sharp guy in some ways and brought some things to the table. But Abraham knew that, Hey, to go forward from here, this culture of what we’ve built is not going to work. We’re going to have to some decisions that are difficult.

Again, not trying to inject leadership principle into the scripture, but I think we can pull that one out and see it because he’s not afraid to have the conversation and say–

Gary Harpst: Matt, it’s really interesting when you mention that because look what he did next that reinforced his sincerity. He said, “Look, we don’t want to be fighting.” He didn’t say, “Let me take the place on the left so we won’t fight,” he said, “You decide.” It reinforced what he really meant. “My objective here is that we not fight. So you decide. ”

Matt Martin: Yeah, you decide.

Gary Harpst: You put those two together and they’re just powerful leadership ideas.

Matt Martin: Yeah. I agree. I agree. And it’s, uh, and I love that. He said,  “If you go to the left, I’ll go to the right. If you go to the right, I’ll go to the left.” A leader sees what can be regardless of what’s in front of them. A godly leader sees that opportunity and knows that they’re going to be trusting God either way. So if you decide to go one way, then I’m going to go the other way because I’m trusting God to take care of me. It doesn’t matter if I go left or right. God’s got my back on this.

Talk about Abraham taking leadership to another level/ That’s godly leadership right there. And that’s godly faith as a leader to say, “Hey, here’s the opportunity. God’s got me. You go the well-watered. You go with what you can see.” An opportunist is always going to go with what looks best in the moment. And a godly leader says, “Hey, I’m going to go where I know God’s got my back.”

Winston Harris: Yeah, also think it’s interesting that verse seven says at that time, the Canaanites and the Perizzites were dwelling in the land. So this wasn’t a spatial thing. Like this literally wasn’t like a regional, there’s literally not enough land. Because there’s a lot of people in this mix. This was specifically about the different types of leadership, the different types of ways that they were going about managing their resources. So yeah, I love that idea.

Jim Piper: I’m repeating myself to some degree, but the last time we were together, I thought about something that happened to me where I heard 3 things and 3 thoughts. I’m thinking small, therefore I’m praying small, and I’m doing too much. It took me about 24 to 48 hours of try to put all those things together. Ever since then, a couple of weeks ago, I’ve been working to unpack that. I’m still doing that. Even today, I’ve been so much more calm not trying to fit–

I’m such a type A driven person, I got to make sure that I get as much possible done today, as I can, which seems to fit with Today Counts and Lead Today. But it doesn’t really because it’s really about what’s the most important thing that I could be doing today, not just all the activity. Again, where I see where I think I see Abraham growing, and that’s why I like this story is let’s just say he had an Abraham thought, “I better get my family out of here.” And let’s just say that that wasn’t necessarily a evil thought, a bad thought but it was an Abraham thought, which still means it could have fallen short of a God thought.

And so now, he’s putting more confidence in himself. He’s adding pressure on himself. He gets into Egypt, probably just now realizing his journey. I mean, I don’t know if he’s on a donkey, a camel or are walking, but he’s got plenty of time to go, “Oh, dang, my wife is beautiful. We’re about to enter enemy territory. I got to figure out–” So now he’s got to figure out something else. Now he’s putting more confidence in his own craftiness. Then that gets him in trouble.

And then he sees God’s hand cover. He still gets a spanking, of course, an embarrassment. I’m sure he gets disciplined, but he also gets rescued out of that. Matt was talking about– He didn’t use the word, but this is what he was saying. Now he’s standing and that was good insight too, Winston. I didn’t think about it. It might have had less to do with geography. Now he’s standing there. Whether he knew it consciously or not, he was able to look at the expanse and have the confidence that God was with him and didn’t need to prove a point with Lot.

Sometimes we can lower ourselves to conflict. Sometimes we need to rise to deal with conflict. But sometimes we need to not lower ourselves to conflict and knowing the difference makes all the difference, whether this– Go ahead.

Lot’s Choice and Walking by Sight

Gary: Do you read this as, at least on the surface, this comes to your faith comment, about Abraham having faith. It looks like Lot took the better choice. Is that the way you read this passage?

Matt Martin: Yes.

Gary Harpst: So, he could see the richness where Abraham was given something that he couldn’t see, which ties in earlier. He was told to go into a land he didn’t know, but he’s trusting God. It’s just an interesting reaffirmation that he trusts God to give up the best part. He was the elder statesman here, right? Lot’s his nephew. You know, there was no yielding. Lot didn’t say, “Well, no, you’re the one here that was called by God, so you decide.” Lot didn’t say that. He said, “This looks better over here, so I’ll take it.”

Jim Piper: Yeah, it’s clear. It’s clear, right? It’s a cliche, but it’s still true and clear. Lot is walking by sight. Abraham is walking by faith.

Consequences of Lot’s Presence

Winston Harris: Do we think that this conflict could have been avoided if he, Abraham, Abram, took God at his word originally in chapter 12, verse one, where he was supposed to leave his family, like, all together?

Matt Martin: I read a commentary on that and it said, yeah, part of this. It’s the consequences of Lot not fully obeying God, because he was supposed to have left. Some would say Lot was not supposed to even be there anyway.”

Jim Piper: Yeah, today counts. The decisions I make today, they’re going to come back tomorrow or a year from now or– Right? I mean, those consequences are still there.

Winston Harris: I if you’re in that vein, I think at a practical level, you could think about just how many relationships do we fight for that we don’t need to be fighting for because of loyalty or we feel like we owe people or just because they’re our family. I’ve heard it said there are relationships for a reason, for a season, and for a lifetime. And so often, we don’t have that discernment. We think everybody goes with us. We think everybody is going to make the journey with us to wherever God is taking us.

And we have to constantly be assessing who do I need to be intentional about? Who do I need to be investing in or giving my time or attention? And sometimes we’re in a relationship with people that are not meant to go where God’s taken us into us. See this also, Lot potentially wasn’t supposed to go where Abram was going. Now there is this, obviously, conflict, brewing conflict that maybe could have been avoided altogether if Abram took God at his word.

Jim Piper: I also see a theme of God parenting us. I think sometimes God does step back and lets us navigate. And like I said earlier, I don’t I don’t see great evil in Abraham’s mistakes and Abrams mistakes. I see weakness. I don’t necessarily see evil, I think there’s a difference. In this state of history, I think there’s a difference between weakness and evil. Now weakness can lead us to evil and yet God’s hand of protection was still on him.

I’m not rushing to a conclusion here. That’s why I kind of love this last part. He’s already done this. “Look as far as you can in every direction.” And by the way, every direction is where Lot went. It’s all yours. And so typical of a younger leader. I probably did the same thing. I want this, I want that.

Matt Martin: Well, and you think you want it now. Abraham was willing to play, I would say, to the long game, but he was also looking through an eternal perspective because he had had an encounter with God that was so very real that it caused him to pack up and leave, which was unheard of, if you would, in that setting. Families really were clans and tribes, and you just didn’t go far.

And so such a moment with God that he would, that he would pack it up and leave it. So he’s playing with an eternal perspective. Whereas, Lot is living in the temporal, right now. Let’s just bring it down to where we live. I can make the money faster because half the work is already done. You know, it’s well watered, it’s ready to go. I can come in and harvest without having to sow. Every young leader’s dream is that right now. It has been. I say right now, but I mean, it has been.

Abram was playing with a longer game in mind. And I would venture to say because of his encounters with God, that he knew what God was capable of doing in his life. And man, would that story just continue to unfold of trusting God.

Jim Piper: Well, and as we know, the next chapter, Abrams not done with Lot’s problems and Lot’s issues.

Matt Martin:  Heck, the next three or four chapters, just keep– They just exasperate of–

Jim Piper: Yeah, before we spoil that, let me throw another question at you guys and see what you think. Because there seems to be a model here of even though I’m lowering God to the size of a human, a mentor, if you will, and I don’t mean to do that, but I’m looking at how apparently, God dealt with Abraham through all of this, a leader who makes a mistake. What principles do you see in how God dealt with Abram that we could perhaps practice when leaders that we mentor, or even colleagues trip and fall and make a mistake?

Gary Harpst: How do we handle those situations?

Mentoring and Dealing with Mistakes

Jim Piper: Yeah, what can we learn from how God dealt with Abram that we can apply to our own leadership when it comes to leading our teams, mentoring somebody, whatever, somebody we might have influence over or with.

Winston Harris: Yeah, I think my initial thought have an opportunity to play basketball at a fairly high level. There’s a delicate balance between coaching and coaching to build up a player. and taking out frustration and this level of shame or disappointment that would impact a player’s confidence, if you will. What I see here is God being able to course correct Abram in a way that he’s still going to be able to move forward because God is God, right? He could have easily just shut down this whole journey, if you will, based off of one mistake.

But we see this theme throughout the scripture, right, that God continually uses those who are willing to be corrected, who are willing to take coaching, if you will. For us mentoring, discipling others, you making sure that the way that we’re coaching them, there’s a way that we’re going about it that is building up and not disqualifying, not demeaning, right?

It can be easy to be critical versus having a well-intentioned design to help somebody ultimately learn from their mistakes so that they can try again. I think a great leader, great mentors are looking for those who they’re developing to be able to try again. We see Abram gets multiple opportunities in the midst of his decisions.

Gary Harpst: No, we don’t have the benefit of knowing what Lot was like later in life that much. But to your point, Winston, it seems like when you treat somebody in a principled way like Lot did, even though Lot may not have processed it or received it with the insight it deserved, later on he may see it. In other words, as a leader, do what’s right before the Lord, not do what will be appreciated by the person you’re interacting with.

Matt Martin: That’s good, Gary. That’s good.

Gary Harpst: Because so often I want to react to circumstances instead of being led by God. I’m sure later on– Well, I’m not sure, but hopefully later on Lot could see what Abraham had done, maybe. I see in my life sacrifices my parents made that I didn’t understand at all till 30 years later.

I’ll give you just a silly example. I went to Ohio State. We grew up on a farm, never really had much of anything. Depression parents and just barely got by. Ohio State went to the Rose Bowl in 1970 got beat by– Not that I’m bitter or anything, but my parents sent me a thousand dollars because they wanted me to go on that trip. And I sat here and think when 1970, a thousand dollars was probably worth five or six or seven, but regardless, they didn’t have it. They didn’t have it. I just didn’t really ever think a thing about it until years and years and years later.

Jim Piper: I think it’s unusual for a young person to think about it. Because right when you said that, I’m thinking about the time I blew up the engine in my car, because I wouldn’t do what my dad said, “Check the oil, check the oil, check the oil.” He let it sit for six months, which was a good lesson because then you had to humble yourself as an upperclassman and take the bus to school. He eventually paid to have the engine rebuilt and gave me a loan for that. Then I ended up getting married sometime later, still was kind of nickel and diming, paying that note down. They forgave that note.

Not to mention all kinds of other things, right? At that time, I remember going, “Oh, phew, glad that’s off my back.” That was kind of like my attitude.” This is a little bit off topic, but we are talking about leadership. I also see Abraham as an approachable leader. You know, I’m thinking about the stories that we have yet to cover in his life. But I get this idea that he probably wasn’t the most assertive maybe, but he was living his faith out loud.

I kind of can see him giving a constant commentary. You know, I think they’re racing back from Egypt. And what is he saying to Sarah? What is he saying to her? You know, he said stuff before she went to the king’s court.

Matt Martin: She was still mad at him. It didn’t matter what he was saying. She wasn’t talking back. I’ll tell you that. “You just called me your sister. What is wrong with you?”

Jim Piper: What was he saying? I don’t see Abraham as somebody who– I kind of see him, “Well, I blew that one, guys.” You know, I literally can see him doing that. I can see him doing what we’ve talked about where he’s talking to God in the as if he’s talking about God but, “Well, I think God wanted me to see this. I didn’t see that, I did this.”

And I kind of see him that way. Because when I see him and Isaac going up the hill and Isaac, he starts asking his dad questions, right? And his dad just calmly answered. Then when you see the way he had Lot in the text that we have today, he just seems to be an approachable leader. Whether he’s giving you good solid advice or not. He just seemed to be an approachable person. That’s another thing that I just kind of saw in this.

Winston Harris: If you go back to situation with his wife, I mean, he would have had to be charismatic and persuasive enough to even have that interaction with the Pharaoh, right? Like, how did that conversation even come about? Like, it definitely wasn’t transactional or awkward.

Gary Harpst: It wouldn’t work in my house.

Matt Martin: One of us would have been told to stay in Egypt. I don’t know if she was staying or I was staying, but somebody was staying in Egypt.

Gary Harpst: Somebody’s leaving.

Matt Martin: Yeah, ’cause somebody’s gonna go. Something that comes to mind, Gary, you kind of said it. Jim, you said, can we learn as mentoring leaders that are on our team? Gary, the more you talk through even some of that idea. First off, leading is hard. Anybody that says it’s not, they’re not leading. They’re just talking about it, but something happens in life. I don’t know that this can be a prescriptive measure what I’m about to say, but Lot– Just look at verse 10, I’m reading out of the NIV version.

He looked around and he saw– Verse 10, he looked around and he saw what looked good and he chased it. Without spoiling the next three or four chapters. Cause the next one, he just gets called and captured. There’s a lot going on there, but it never got better. All the way to chapter 18, 19, we’ll get there. We never see Lot learning or going the right direction. And he had a moment there where he tried, but as we’re leading our team, is there a point that we just look at them?

And if we recognize maybe, and I don’t know the word to put around this trait, all three of you men are much smarter than I am on this. So if it’s not tempered, it will run you off the rails. Like if you don’t temper that wanting or that flash or that success packaged in the wrong way, however you say that. And I have some close friends that they were telling, the tone of their voice, they were trying to tell me one thing, but their words were selling them out so fast.

Like, “Man, this is where I feel like God’s called me to go do it.” They would try to say it in a way that was convincing. But the words of what they were doing, I’m like, “You need to think about that.” “No, no, no, no. No, this is what I–” Their words were selling them out that they were chasing what was easy, what was right in front of them, what was flashy, what was, let’s just call it well watered.

And I’ve seen church planners do this. I’ve seen business owners. Just take that world. I’ve seen church planners leave a church and go five miles down the road and then, “I feel like God is–” No, it’s well watered. Like you’ve been building that with a senior leader somewhere for the last five, 10, 12 years. Yeah, it feels like it’s going to work. And I’ve seen a lot of them, their lives run off the rails.

Somebody in business, they have an idea of a similar industry they’ve worked in. So they build their own little book of clients. They’re like, “Oh, this is going to work.” You know, no, no, it’s just well-watered right now. You didn’t do anything for it, but you’re going to go try to reap it. Again, I’m not trying to be prescriptive with this, but as we see young leaders in this place, can we try to be a voice of reason?

Cause Abraham was just kind of like, “Hey, if you go left, I’ll go right. If you go right, I’ll go–” Kind of do what you want with it. I’m like, Jimmy, he’s just kind of talking. He was leading as he went and he was leading as he was talking or leading as he was responding. Which makes him very approachable. Is there something here that we could pull out as leaders when we see a young leader, particularly that wants to go chase something easy, well watered and say, “Hold up, let’s dig into motives. Let’s dig into work ethic. Let’s dig into–” The list could go on.

Jim Piper: I think my takeaway on this chapter is what would it look like if my relationships with others, we were talking on a more frequent basis about what we’re learning, and why we’re making the decisions that we’re making. Like, for example, what if I said, “I just don’t feel like getting any strong direction on this particular issue?” So I’m using all the faculties, I know what to do. By faith, I guess, I’m going to take this road and we’ll see what happens versus try to create a narrative like Matt was just talking about that tries to convince others. What if we just said it the way it is?

I was telling a story today in coaching appointment just before, maybe an hour before our podcast or episode today. And I was telling a story about an enterprise that I had started. It got to a place where I believed I need to take the next step, which was a really big step. I was about to sit down at a conference table that was unrelated to that enterprise, but it was another organization I was part of.

As I was sitting down, I was in conversation with one of the participants and I said to him, “I am more afraid of going to the next level than I was to start this enterprise in the first place.” And it just kind of flowed out of me. Because I think I felt safe with– His name is Mike. And without even a hesitation, Mike says, “Well, that’s because now you’ve got something to lose.”

It might be obvious to the rest of the world, but that wasn’t obvious to me until that moment. And I thought that’s the beauty of having relationships where we can just talk openly. Or so what was I kind of saying? I think I’m doing the right thing, but I’m scared that I’m doing the wrong thing. What if I screw it up and lose all of this, right? And that’s what I was saying. And somehow he heard it and was able to say it in a way where I went, “Wow.”

I’m just wondering how that would change the dynamics of some of our relationships and our leadership structures if we didn’t just talk about Abram. But we used Abram to say if 1000s and 1000s and perhaps millions of people can read of the smart things he did in the dumb things he did, then why don’t we get a little more open about the good and bad. And we just all might do better. I know that sounds like a weird takeaway, but that’s kind of the takeaway that I’m taking away. How about you guys? What are you taking away?

Gary: Well, your story brought to mind something, maybe it’s a little off, but you talked about this something to lose. This is supposedly a true story. It was years and years old, but some man who built bootstrapped his business from nothing, like, apparently you were talking about yourself. He got to it, to working. And then he, I don’t know, he sold it and was wealthy and then going around and telling people his faith journey and how God had blessed him and all of that and had great success. And at the end of his talk, some little old lady got up and says, well, why don’t you go do it again? it

That thought never left me. I just thought, “Yeah, he had a, whatever, a million dollars to lose. When he started the first time, he had $10 to lose.” Boy, you’re bringing up, Jim, what he got to lose. That is such a big, that really tests your faith. really. you It does.

Matt Martin: But to that, Gary, again, I’ll read between the lines here a little bit, but what if Abram, you let’s just think of that. He built an altar. Let’s go back to verse four. He had already been here. He built an altar first and called on the name of the Lord because it said he went where he had been earlier. Okay, well, now he’s got a whole lot more. And so he’s sitting here and he may be thinking that idea.

And I think it’s interesting that God gets him on verse 14 and says, “Okay, Lot’s gone, now come over here. You’ve got a lot more to lose this time, but I want you to look around from where you are.” And it’s to the north and the south and the east and the west, all the land that you see, I will give to you and your offspring forever. I’ll make your offspring like the dust of earth. Anybody can count the dust. They can be counted.”

And then it’s verse 17. I don’t know what I would do with this statement. “Go walk through the length and the breadth of the land for I’m giving it to you.” I think that’s a long ways. I’m not real sure. As far as I can see, I don’t know what, you know, depending on the terrain, I can see as far as 25, 30 miles sometimes, sometimes 40 miles. If I get on a little bit of a hill, I can see 70 miles. So depending on where he’s at, terrain, geography, but this is God’s way of reminding him, Abram, you may have more and you may feel like you have more to lose, but I’ve got more to give you.

Gary Harpst: Amen.

Matt Martin: I’m just preaching to myself right now because of our current situation of what we’re living in right now as a church, but you just minister to me Gary. So I’m gonna preach to all of us on my little soapbox now.

If I could trust God with a little bit, I think I’ve helped the church gain, if you would, the enterprise gain over the last 15 years. God saying, “Well, that’s cute. I mean, yeah, I’m the reason for it all anyway, but hey, why don’t you go walk the length and the breadth of this? Because I’m just going to show you as far as you keep walking, I still own it and it’s still mine. And if I gave you–”

What I even consider, you consider a lot, but God considers a little bit. “If I gave you all of that, I’ve got more. I’ve got more than I can give you.” Again, it goes back to the same word we used early on, trust. Either we trust God with it or we don’t. Either we trust God blessed us from the nothing to the little. Then we all have our own definition of a little to a lot. Then we get to, we should trust God from a lot to what God has next for more.

>Thank you for that. You ministered to me today. This wasn’t for anybody else today. It was for me and Gary.

Gary Harpst: Sidebar, Jim, that’s the way these things have turned into something that feed me, these coffees. They really do. I need it.

Winston Harris: Metaphorical coffees that don’t exist here.

Gary Harpst: Yeah. Yeah, I don’t drink coffee tea, I’ll drink tea.

Jim Piper: Our coffee time that he does not drink coffee at.

Winston Harris: Yeah, I mean, I just have kind of a simple thought observation, kind of probably even said it or touched on it. In verse eight, just the phrase, “then Abraham said to Lot.” I just think about that idea that Abraham as a leader had to confront Lot. There’s this theme even throughout chapter 12 and 13 that Lot was always following Abraham’s lead. It literally says, “and Lot went with him and Lot went with him.”

And so Abraham was always the catalyst. He was always the one that was confronting. He had to specifically confront Lot about this thing so that God could get him alone and keep him moving forward. I just love that idea that as leaders we need to be willing to confront the elephant in the room, have the conversation, make the hard decision. It was the confrontation that was the catalyst to the calling, if you will.

The Significance of Hebron and Mamre

Jim Piper: I appreciate all three of you guys. I always do. This Genesis 13 is really a diving board into some really exciting, can easily turn into a movie series, what we’re about to get into. I’m thinking, how about we close with this verse 12 says, “So Abram settled in the land of Canaan, and Lot moved his tents to a place near Sodom, and settled among the cities of the plain.”

Sodom was a dangerous place to be associated with, so we’ll see that in the next chapter. And then we have this little obscure verse in verse 18, and I’m going by memory here, so hopefully I’m not too far off. It says, “Abram moved his camp to Hebron.” He moved his camp to Hebron and settled. Well, he moved his camp to Hebron. If I remember right, Hebron means a place of vision. “And settled near the oak grove, belonging to Mamre. If I recall correctly, Mamre means the place of communion.

“I know that when good vision has come out of my life, it has been because I’ve sat in communion and I’ve thought about the good, the bad, and the ugly and let it settle. The fumes of that or the aroma of that would bring about a new vision and a new day.” And then He ends it by saying, “There He built another altar to the Lord.” A pretty cool statement.

I care about you guys, and I can’t wait to dive into the next chapter. I hope you have a great day. Thanks for spending figurative coffee with me.

Matt Martin: Always a pleasure, always a pleasure.

Outro

Winston Harris: Thank you for joining us here at The Today Count Show. Be sure to like and subscribe on whatever platform you listen to or watch, so you don’t miss any content. Stay tuned for more coming soon.
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