Episode 215: Wrestling With God: Fear, Faith & the Cost of Growth | Genesis 32 Study

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Today Counts Show Episode 215

Preview

Winston: But for the believer, the greatest platform we know is the cross. And so, if the one whom we follow, his greatest platform came in suffering, why would we think we wouldn’t find significance and the platform that we are looking for has to go through the corridor of suffering? We desire significance and we avoid suffering, not realizing that suffering can reveal significance.

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All right, let’s get to the podcast.

Introduction

Jim: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Today Count Show. Today I have with me Pastor Winston Harris, and it’s just the two of us.

Winston: Just the two of us.

Jim: Just the two of us today. Of course, we have Jonathan in the studio who’s doing all the camera work, lights, and all that kind of stuff. Thanks, Jonathan, for what you do to help us. I don’t think anyone can make me look good anymore, but we’re going to give it a shot.

Winston: What? We’re twins.

Jim: Well, that’s why I prefer that you listen to this show more than you watch this show.

Anyway, we’re in the Genesis Project. That’s where you and I have landed as the co-hosts of the Today Count Show.

This one’s a little bit different than a lot of conversations that you and I have together that we get to share. We’ve got a couple of exciting podcasts coming up here in the near future.

Chapter 32 Overview

Anyway, we find ourselves in this walk through Genesis, in the 32nd chapter.

I just want to give you an overview of where we’re going. I think it might tease you to stay with us as we walk through this.

Jacob, I think it’s fair to say, even though maybe it’s never put exactly this way, becomes the father of Israel. Would you say that’s a fair statement?

Winston: Yeah.

Jim: We know that there are two patriarchs that precede him, his father and his grandfather. But because of what we’re going to read in this chapter, we’re going to see the clear transition of God developing a nation after this guy, Jacob.

So anyway, Jacob is heading home after about 20 years away from home. For the first time, he has to face the consequences of what he ran away from. To put it in a nutshell, he’s running from his brother Esau, who, last he heard, wanted to kill him.

2 Movements of Chapter 32

The chapter is divided into two very dramatic movements.

The first half, Jacob prepares to meet Esau through, I would say, a diplomatic strategy, through prayer, and a kind of war tactic or survival tactic of dividing his company into two parts. That’s the first half that we’re going to read about here in just a second.

Then, in the second half, he finds himself alone at night at the Jabbok Ford, where he wrestles with a mysterious figure. I’m going to leave it at that for now. A mysterious figure all the way until dawn.

Now Winston, as you know, I was a wrestler for a long time. And I am telling you that three periods of two minutes each, or three minutes each, seem like an eternity if you get to that third period of a wrestling match.

This wrestling match, if I’m reading it right, all night.

Winston: All night long. Six, seven, eight hours.

Jim: He can’t quite see. He can smell; He can hear; He can feel this person. But unless there was a full moon that night, he probably didn’t even see this person. There’s actually some interesting words about that. It’s an encounter that leaves him renamed, leaves him limping, and permanently changed.

How’s that for an introduction?

Winston: It’s going to be a good one. This is one of my favorite chapters.

ESV vs NLT

Jim: All right. Well, let’s do it. I’m reading out of the ESV this time. What are you using today?

Winston: NLT.

Jim: NLT. Okay, so we swapped.

Winston is going to be following along in the New Living Translation, which is an idiomatic translation that translates phrase by phrase, thought by thought.

The reason why that’s a great translation is because you can’t really translate one language to another word for word perfectly. It can’t be done.

I can give examples of that, but that’s not the purpose of this particular episode.

I’m going to read from the English Standard Version, which is what’s called a literal translation, where they attempt to translate things word for word. I picked that one this time.

If you’ve been with us, you know that I usually use the NLT because it’s conversational and we don’t usually have to get our dictionary out and start looking up what this word or that word means.

So without further ado, I’m going to read verses 1 through 21. I’m going to pause and let you commentate on that, Winston, while I catch my breath and gather my thoughts. Then I’ll join you in the conversation. Does that sound good?

Winston: Yeah.

Jacob’s Diplomatic Strategy (Genesis 32:1-21)

Jim: Okay.

Verse 1 of Chapter 32 says:

Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met him. And when Jacob saw them, he said, “This is God’s camp.” So he called the name of that place Mahanaim.

And Jacob sent messengers before him to Esau his brother in the land of Seir, the country of Edom, instructing them: “Thus–”

We don’t say thus too much anymore. I mean, I say that once in a blue moon.

“Thus you shall say to my lord Esau:” Esau was his older brother, right?

Winston: Yep.

Jim: “Thus says your servant Jacob.” He hasn’t seen him in 20 years. “Thus says your servant Jacob. I have sojourned with Laban,” that’s his father in law, “and stayed until now. I have oxen, donkeys, flocks, male servants, and female servants. And I have sent to tell my lord, in order that I may find favor in your sight.” In other words, sent these ahead.

Verse 6:

And the messengers returned to Jacob, saying, “We came to your brother Esau, and he is coming to meet you, and there are four hundred men with him.”

Then Jacob was greatly afraid and distressed. He divided the people who were with him, and the flocks and herds and camels, into two camps, thinking, “If Esau comes to the one camp and attacks it, then the camp that is left will escape.”

Verse 9.

And Jacob said: “O God of my father Abraham and God of my father Isaac, O Lord, who said to me, Return to your country and to your kindred, that I may do you good.

I am not worthy of the least of all the deeds of your steadfast love and all the faithfulness that you have shown to your servant.

For with only my staff I crossed this Jordan, and now I have become two camps.

Please deliver me from the hand of my brother, from the hand of Esau, for I fear him, that he may come and attack me, the mothers with the children.

But you said, I will surely do you good and make your offspring as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.”

So he stayed there that night, and from what he had with him he took a present for his brother Esau: two hundred female goats and twenty male goats, two hundred ewes and twenty rams, thirty milking camels and their calves, forty cows and ten bulls, twenty female donkeys and ten male donkeys.

These he handed over to his servants, every drove by itself, and said to his servants, “Pass on ahead of me and put a space between drove and drove.”

He instructed the first:

“When Esau my brother meets you and asks you, To whom do you belong? Where are you going? And whose are these ahead of you? then you shall say:

They belong to your servant Jacob. They are a present sent to my lord Esau. Moreover, he is behind us.”

He likewise instructed the second and third, and all who followed the droves:

“You shall say the same thing to Esau when you find him. And you shall say, Moreover, your servant Jacob is behind us.”

For he thought, “I may appease him with the present that goes ahead of me, and afterward I shall see his face. Perhaps he will accept me.”

So the present passed on ahead of him, and he himself stayed that night in the camp.

Thoughts on that?

God Reassures Jacob Before the Crisis

Winston: Yeah, there’s a lot there. I think one of the things that jumped out to me immediately at the very beginning of Chapter 32 is the encounter with the angels. I thought that was interesting.

We just see this theme of Jacob, who is obviously a very broken man, but God keeps meeting him. He just keeps having these spiritual encounters. God keeps reaffirming His desire and His relationship with him.

To us, that seems kind of random, right? We don’t really even have much context.

Jim: Yeah, what’s that all about?

Winston: But for whatever reason, God allows him to encounter angels. The angels of God came to meet him.

So it’s almost like, once again, this reaffirming of God’s presence with Jacob.

Like, “I am with you.”

God has said that multiple times already to Jacob. Jacob seemingly just keeps jacking stuff up, and God is still saying, “I’m with you. I still choose you.”

Seeing God’s Presence in Difficult Seasons

Jim: I see it the same way. I think the angels were already there, walking with him, but they became visible. This is my theory, to encourage Jacob.

Winston: Which is similar to the story where Jesus is walking with the two men and they don’t realize it’s Jesus. He was there the whole time.

Jim: They don’t recognize Him.

Winston: But at some point, Jesus reveals Himself to them and they become aware. It wasn’t like Jesus just miraculously appeared. He had always been there. They just weren’t aware. That’s what that makes me think.

Why Miracles Don’t Automatically Remove Fear

Jim: When we use the term systematic theology, Scripture interprets Scripture.

Winston: Hermeneutics.

Jim: Hermeneutics. When I read that, it reminded me, now that you mentioned the men on the road to Emmaus, of something Jesus said. Even if someone were to rise from the dead– I’m going to use my own paraphrase. Rise from the dead in front of you, if someone who has not believed Scripture—that’s basically what Jesus said. He referred to it as the law and prophets, the Old Testament scripture.

If someone does not believe that, even if someone were to rise from the dead in front of that person as a witness, he still wouldn’t believe.

The reason I bring that up is because the Lord, as you said, is being faithful to Jacob and shows Himself through the angels to him. Yet it still doesn’t stop him from being afraid.

Fear, Uncertainty, and Remembering God’s Promises

Winston: That’s a great callout. He is terrified at the news. We just had an encounter with the angels. And that had no effect on his confidence.

Jim: Apparently he can’t see them now. They don’t have swords drawn. They’re not around him.

Winston: There’s an army of four hundred men. Which is kind of hilarious when we get to Esau and the meeting in the next chapter. We’ll get to that.

What’s interesting is Esau couldn’t give any kind of indication on what his intentions were. Or did the servants just forget to say some other stuff? What happened in that communication that left Jacob to just assume?

Jim: It doesn’t say whether Esau received the gifts. It doesn’t say anything. It just says, “Hey, he’s coming, and he’s got four hundred guys that look pretty ticked off.”

Winston: These are just the worst communicators ever. The servants are, they had a great conversation with Esau potentially, and they just bring back like, “Well, he’s coming.”

So he’s terrified. What I do love, though, is that Jacob, sometimes you have to remind God of what God said. And though God didn’t forget, we think God forgot.

We get into these moments where we’re scared and fearful, like Jacob. And Jacob is saying, “This is what You said to me. This is what You promised me.” As he’s having this honest dialogue, he’s reminding God, but he’s really reminding himself.

Desperation Sets the Stage for Transformation

Jim: We do that in relationships, right? “Now remember what you said.” “Remember you told me.” People say that, “Jim, now remember.”

I like that because I think that displays a relationship idea. A relationship idea.

“Did You forget?” And to some degree, even reminding yourself or looking for affirmation. Did I imagine that, or didn’t You say it?

You did say it, right?

Leadership Under Pressure: Prayer and Planning

Winston: You have given me angels. I think I remember. This is what You said. You just see Jacob kind of scattered in his mind. He’s getting desperate.

You can feel the desperation starting to settle in. Which is interesting because I think the desperation sets the stage for what you’re about to read in a little bit. Without the desperation, is that encounter as effective once we get to it? The desperation is starting to settle in.

We’ve got fear. He’s obviously scared. He knows Esau is coming with four hundred men. He thinks it’s ill intent, potentially. He’s praying this desperate prayer:

“God, You said this. I’m feeling differently, but this is what You said.”

But then he kind of switches into this strategic leadership mode, which I think is interesting. He’s counting all of his resources. He is giving specific instructions and directions. He’s training his guys on what to say.

This is an interesting shift. Not only is he scared, but he shifts into this leadership mode of, “Okay, I need you to do X, Y, and Z. I need you to run the buttonhook play.” He gets into this quarterback mode in the midst of his fear.

How often do we, once we get scared, shift into this control pattern and we’re like, “I have to start getting things in order.”

From Taking to Giving: Evidence of Growth

Jim: I think that’s a really good insight. What I would add to that is I find it fascinating that Jacob, being a taker and a deceiver from early on, is now giving. But he’s giving out of self-preservation. Everything still seems, in some ways, to be about him.

Although, what I think is a little different is that he’s doing something a lot of people don’t do when they’re trying to get out of a jam. Like you said, he’s being strategic, but he’s praying too. So he’s doing both. Let’s give him some credit for that.

Winston: You can feel the humanity here.

Jim: Yeah. You go, “Okay, I’m going to do this. I hope it works. God, will You help me with this? Will You protect me from Esau?”

The Human Struggle Between Faith and Anxiety

I don’t know if you’ve ever lost sleep at night because of something you’re going through. But I remember one particular time in my life where I was in a leadership crisis. It really was a crisis. I prayed, and I gave it to God, and I trusted God. But I went to bed and couldn’t sleep. Tossed and turned and tossed and turned. Then I’m questioning myself.

“Am I really a man of faith? Because if I really gave it to God and trusted that God loves me and He’s going to help me through this and help me make the right decisions, then why can’t I rest?”

And even now, many years later, I don’t know what I could have done differently. I guess I could have taken a handful of sleeping pills, but I don’t think that would have been the right thing. I do think I took some nighttime NyQuil to try to help, but I still tossed and turned. And I got up in the morning, looked in the mirror, and saw my bloodshot eyes and the bags underneath my eyes. I was a little disappointed in myself.

So yeah, you said you see humanity in this.

A lot of times, we want to pick on all these guys because we’re on the outside looking in. We’re sitting in front of microphones, and today we have a good day, so we’re full of faith. But we’re not in this guy’s place. Not only that, this guy’s been beat up for twenty years as well.

He’s kind of stuck between two situations. He just finished running from Laban, and now he’s running to Esau. And if you think about it, he was in the middle of those two.

Stuck Between a Rock and a Hard Place

Winston: I think the story behind the story, if you will, that people can see themselves in, is being stuck between a rock and a hard place. The two options of where he’s coming from and where he’s going aren’t great options.

Either he’s potentially going back to his brother, who, with all we know, wants to kill him. Or he’s leaving a place where he just came out of a conflict with his father-in-law.

How often do we feel like we’re leaving a season or situation that wasn’t great, but we also don’t necessarily have much hope for the future? It’s like, what do we do? What do we do here? We do get desperate. We do start trying to manipulate circumstances.

Because even in the midst of what seems to be God still being faithful to us– And it said it. I thought that was interesting. “I’m not worthy of Your goodness.”

How often do we feel like this is too good to be true? If God is with me, I don’t deserve that either. So you’re just kind of going in circles.

Humility in the Midst of Blessing

Jim: There’s a lot of noise going on in his head, isn’t there? Good noise and bad noise.

I guess the good wouldn’t be noise. He’s got some good news in him.

But I’ve been through seasons like that too, where I’ve got so much going through my mind. The mind is a crazy thing. Or maybe emotions, and his mind is trying to filter them the best that it can.

Verse 10

Winston: Verse 10 said:

“I am not worthy of all the unfailing love and faithfulness You have shown to me, Your servant.”

And he talked about basically being blessed.

When I came over, I had nothing but a stick, and now I have two large camps.

Basically, I’m very wealthy.

So it’s kind of like, in this prayer of desperation:

“Why do You continue to show up? I don’t deserve this.”

I deserve to either be killed by my brother or be in conflict with my father-in-law.

Though I don’t want those realities either. It’s kind of like: “Lord, help me. I really don’t know what to do here.”

Trading Wealth for Reconciliation

Jim: Yeah. It’s funny that you mentioned that because I highlighted that verse, Verse 10, for the same reason you did.

This morning I was reading out of the Gospel of Luke where Jesus was telling a parable about two guys that basically go to church. One guy is praying this really great prayer and is sure glad he’s not like the guy on his right. Then the guy on his right, who was a sinner, threw himself before God and admitted that he was a sinner.

Jesus makes it pretty clear. He says, “You don’t want to be that first guy. If anybody, you want to be the second guy.” Not that He wants you to go sin so that you can confess. We’re talking here about self-awareness, humility, and confession of things.

I don’t know about you, but I like his strategy. I think there’s something to learn from it. If you’re in conflict with somebody, Proverbs says that a soft answer turns away wrath. Spreading out these gifts understands humanity.

I think the other thing too is that while Jacob was willing to do just about anything when he was younger to gain what he wanted, it seems that he has wised up a little bit to say,

“I’m willing to give stuff away to earn something much more precious.” Which would be peace with my brother, versus having all this wealth.

I think when you get wiser, you recognize what you’re willing to lose so that you can gain something else. Whereas when you’re younger, ambitious, and can’t see the forest for the trees, you want it all.

I don’t think all is the objective. But I think a lot of misguided ambition wants it all.

When Suffering Reveals Significance

Winston: Jacob has just worked so hard in Laban’s camp, home, whatever you want to call it. He’s amassed all this wealth, and now he’s basically willing to give up half of what he worked so hard for. Just for, potentially, a relationship with his brother. If not, avoiding death. That is beautiful.

I’ve had a thought, unrelated to this, but I think I see that thought in it. Tell me if I’m wrong here.

So often, we desire significance and we avoid suffering, not realizing that suffering can reveal significance.

Jim: Wow. You really come up with some good lines. I could never do that. Mine feels like a boxer coming out of the tenth round.

Winston: Take this. Take this truth.

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Significance and Avoiding Suffering

Winston: Yeah. I was on the treadmill yesterday and I was just thinking through some things. Actually–

Jim: Like suffering?

Winston: Yeah.

Jim: The treadmill will produce some suffering.

Winston: Yeah, treadmill. But yeah, recently, in the past few weeks for me personally, I’ve been in close proximity to people suffering. And you mentioned selfish ambition, personal ambition, and living in these spaces where people are constantly seeking significance of some sort.

I remember I was listening to a podcast, and they were talking about Stephen in Acts. And Stephen has one of the most significant moments in the early church while being stoned.

Jim: While being stoned.

Winston: The heavens open up. He sees Jesus. And he has the forethought to say, “Forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

So I guess my thought was, how often do we look for a platform, thinking the platform is significant? But for the believer, the greatest platform we know is the cross. And so, if the one whom we follow, His greatest platform came in suffering, why would we think we wouldn’t find significance? And the platform that we are looking for has to go through the corridor of suffering.

Is Jacob entering into this place of suffering? His whole life, he’s kind of trying to find significance. He keeps grabbing at things and trying to earn things and achieve things and amass things. He’s going to find some significance here. We’re about to jump into that. But it comes through the corridor of desperation, fear, and battle.

So how often do we miss significance because we keep shortcutting suffering and trying to circumvent suffering?

From Ambition and Deceit to Humility and Purpose

Jim: It really is interesting. Since we’re talking about Jacob, if you go back and think about it, he sought the highest position in his family through deceit. He sought the financial wealth of his family through deceit. He sought the prettiest girl in the land when he ran into his would-be wife and then was willing to do it again.

And he definitely was a man of rich taste. He was a man of ambition. He did want it all. I think that’s what the evidence shows. But now, as you’re stating, you can see that God is working in his life. Ultimately, he is going to be established as, as we said on the front end of the podcast, the father of the nation of Israel. But it takes a different path.

Now it’s a path through humility. It’s a path through being renamed and broken.

When Significance Means Wanting Different Things

To your point with Stephen, it’s not like Stephen says, “You know what? I’m going to get stoned so I can see the gates of heaven.” It’s kind of like when I talk about marriage. Forty-six, going on forty-seven years, if my math is right.

It’s not because I’m a great man. It’s not because I’m a great Christian. But I did do some thinking. I did make some predetermined decisions where I said, “When it’s all said and done, I would rather be a man who lives with his woman, grows old together, and finishes together—for good, for bad, for ugly, whatever—than be the guy with the gold chain who, once he hits a certain age, goes through a couple more women for the sake of pleasure.”

It’s not like I’m dead to earthly and fleshly pleasures. But when you walk with God, you desire different things. Because you used the word significance.

I would rather live on a little farm in Indiana and do a great job as a farmer and be a small pillar in a small community than have a big name and then fall to my own fleshly things. I do think the definition of significance changes when you walk with God.

Not to say that I didn’t want this or didn’t want that. I have a lot of desires. Shoot, I would love to have a hundred-acre ranch. But I know I can’t take care of it myself. I’d probably need fifty people on staff to take care of it. Then I’m thinking, “How do I make the money for that?”

When you start calculating things, you go, “Okay, maybe I’ll just visit that ranch, and that would be awesome.”

Winston: Scratch that itch.

Jim: Yeah, scratch that itch. But yeah, you see a lot of things going on here.

The Wrestling Match: Transformation at the Jabbok Ford (Genesis 32:22-32)

Should we go to the next section, you think?

Okay. So now we just talked a little bit about Jacob moving towards Esau, and now night has settled, at least a night has settled, and we’re in verse 22.

Verse 22

This is a shorter section, but this might be the more potent of the two sections. In verse 22, it says, “The same night he arose and took his two wives, his two female servants, and his 11 children, and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. He took them and sent them across the stream and everything else that he had. And Jacob was left alone. And the man wrestled with him until the breaking of day.”

So reading this at face value, talk about bizarre. He gets his family across the river, across the stream, across the ford. And then he’s left alone, and he’s wrestling with some dude in the dark.

Verse 25

All right. Verse 25. “When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket.” So the man that he was wrestling with touched his hip socket, and Jacob’s hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. And he said, “Let me go, for the day has broken.” Now, that’s the man saying that.

But Jacob said, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” And he said to him, “What is your name?” He said, “Jacob.” Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed.”

Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him. So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel. I think it’s pronounced Peniel. Yeah, actually Peniel, saying, “For I have seen God face to face.”

So now he’s identifying this mysterious person as God. That’s bizarre. And when I finish reading this next section, I got to tell you something before you commentate, Winston.

“And yet my life has been delivered. For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.” The sun rose upon him as he passed Peniel, limping because of his hip.

Therefore, to this day, the people of Israel do not eat the sinew of the thigh that is on the hip socket because he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip on the sinew of the thigh.

God Is Big Enough to Be Small Enough to Wrestle With Us

What I want to say before you take over and start commentating on this amazing passage is that you’ve heard me say, and I’ve said on this podcast and this episode many times, a phrase that came to me years and years ago: that God is big enough to be small enough to care about me.

Well, this is the passage where I got that from because, if we read this correctly, this, at the very least, is a theophany.

It is a manifestation of God in some form. Whether it be the angel of the Lord, or whether it be the Son of God, the pre-incarnate Son of God, or some other manifestation, I don’t know, but he’s clearly declared.

And so, one of the things that bothered me when I was younger, when I was in my teenage years and I read this for the first time, I’m going, “How did Jacob wrestle with God and come away as a draw? I mean, that doesn’t make any sense to me.”

Until I started thinking about God becoming small enough to get involved in the affairs of men, even to the point where he proves Jacob’s incredible resilience.

Rediscovering Scripture as an Invitation, Not a Barrier

So I wanted to share that personal story because, if you’re not a Bible reader, I would encourage you to take it up again. Try again. Maybe you read it 10 years ago and you said, “Yeah, it’s just too hard to understand.”

But the treasures that wait for you are amazing. And this particular thing that I said, that I believe God is big enough to be small enough to care about you and care about me, came from my own confusion on this passage.

But over time, I realized that God is willing to get on a wrestling mat with me and not pin me, but let me get to be as strong as I can be, while knowing that I’m fighting with him and not just men. That, to me, was a big wow.

When Understanding Becomes an Invitation to Seek God

Winston: Yeah, that’s beautiful. And I just had an opportunity to share this thought with some young adults in the young adult ministry in our church community.

Hebrews 11:6 says God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him.

And the context was that we were talking about God’s Word, and one of the obstacles to God’s Word can be understanding. We often just stop when we don’t understand.

But that shouldn’t be an obstacle. A lack of understanding should be an invitation.

When we hit something in Scripture that is hard to reconcile, there should be a diligence within us to say, “Okay, I need to figure that out. I need to get past this.”

So let me move into a commentary. Let me move into a resource. Let me get with somebody that knows this. Don’t just stop in God’s Word. Figure out, okay, how do I get more context for this? How can I learn more? How can I get deeper in understanding?

And so that just made me think that there’s a diligence required in God’s Word. We also see a diligence in Jacob to wrestle with God.

What is really interesting, and even to that point of God being big enough to be small enough, is that God initiates the wrestling match.

The God Who Initiates the Relationship

Jim: Yeah. He just shows up. Jacob isn’t saying, “Hey God, where are you? Let’s fight.”

Winston: Jacob’s minding his business. All alone. And God chooses to initiate the fight. That’s such a characteristic of God. God is an initiator. He’s the catalyst. He’s the one that pursues us.

Hermeneutically, we jump back into John 15. He says, “You didn’t choose me. I chose you.” Jesus is always the one who starts the relationship.

Jim: It’s funny how we want to fight against that text, though. “No, I chose you.” No, you didn’t even exist, dude.

Winston: Before the foundations.

Jim: That’s right.

Winston: “I chose you before the foundations.” To Jeremiah: “I knew you before you were in your mother’s womb.” It’s always God initiating the relationship. And here, initiating this wrestling match.

Studying for this, I came across a commentary that talked about how we will find ourselves wrestling with everything else except ourselves. And God is constantly inviting us into a wrestling match.

Comfort, Distraction, and Defining Moments

Jim: And that’s what he was doing, really, wasn’t he? He was wrestling with himself.

Winston: Through all this other external stuff. All this other external stuff. And finally God’s like, “I have you in a space where there are no other distractions. It’s just me and you.”

And how often, back to that suffering idea, maybe suffering is too harsh of a word and you go to extremes, but how often do we get to places that are uncomfortable, yet they force us to focus? Comfort is a great distraction.

Jim: I like comfort. I like a hot cup of coffee and a big cinnamon roll.

Winston: I was going to say a nice chocolate chip cookie. Got my slippers on, my jammies.

Jim: I kind of graduated from the chocolate chip cookie to this big fat hot cinnamon roll.

Winston: Anything warm.

Jim: But that costs three miles by itself. Easy.

Winston: Cause you another wrestling match.

Jim: Maybe five miles.

Winston: An all-night wrestling, man.

Jim: There’s a lot of fat in that cinnamon roll.

Winston: I mean, yeah, so often we’re avoiding places where we have to get alone with God and be confronted with the realities of our life and our decisions. And here–

Comfort vs. a Life of Defining Moments

Jim: There’s nothing wrong with comfort. The Bible talks about blessing, and you think about the life of Solomon and all of that. But I think what you’re saying is that to pursue comfort above all things is a mistake.

What we probably should be pursuing– I don’t know if pursuing is the right word. I’m not sure if that’s the right word. But let me say this.

I think a beautiful life is one that can recount defining moments in their life where you recognize that you and God were walking together in this moment, or that he brought this moment into your life.

When you have a series of defining moments where you can look back and say, “God was with me here. God was with me here.” And they’re not all great moments. Some are great moments, fun moments, and some are, to your point, suffering moments or difficult moments—moments of great uncertainty, great disappointment, and great loss. These can be defining moments.

If we just had an episode talking about defining moments, we could easily go an hour talking about what they are. Because you might be going through something right now that you think, “Well, this is not a defining moment. I want to get the hell out of this moment as fast as I can.” But three years from now, looking back on it, you’re going to say, “Oh, wait a second. If I would have had the spiritual insight to see that I was wrestling with God at that moment, that was something pretty special.”

Recognizing the Moment That Requires Holding On

Winston: Which is a great point. What’s interesting is Jacob recognized this as a defining moment. If he hadn’t recognized it, he would have let God go.

Jim: Yeah, he didn’t. Very good.

Winston: But he said, “I will not let you go.” He understood the value of this interaction. He could have easily said, “Oh man, I’m tired. Let’s just stop fighting.”

But he had the foresight to say, “No, this is different. This is a different conflict. I need this. This is uncomfortable, but I can’t let this end without being different.” And then we see him become different.

Jim: I think the significance of the night is that when we think of evil, devils, crime, darkness, and tossing and turning in bed, this is at night. This is when we can’t see. And I don’t think that is a coincidence in this situation.

Transformation That Comes Through Wounding, Not Comfort

In fact, one of the other principles that I pulled out of this is that we may want– Isn’t it interesting that you may be saying, “I really need to be stronger than this addiction that I have,” or “I really need the strength to take on this problem in my life,” or “this relationship that has gone awry or sideways.”

And in order to do that, you have to be transformed because you’re obviously saying, “I can’t do it. In my current state, I can’t do it.” So I think the other thing this story teaches us is that transformation– Honestly, I can’t skip over what you said.

If someone is seeking comfort, they’re not going to find transformation. But if they’re looking for more power in their life, more confidence, or whatever the synonyms are, if they’re looking to be transformed to the next level of whatever they’re envisioning, it’s not going to come without wounding.

And I think we can draw that principle.

Well, I don’t think we’re proof-texting to say because of what happened to Jacob, we can now say as a principle that transformation requires wounding. But if we take the whole counsel of God’s Word, how many people can we bring into this dialogue and say, “Nope, it’s pretty darn clear transformation doesn’t happen without wounding.”

I don’t know that we like that. And I mentioned to you before we hit the record button that the Catholic priest Henry Nouwen wrote a book called The Wounded Healer, which is very much about that whole idea. Not only does it point to Christ as the wounded healer, but it also recognizes that we become something completely better through our wounds. Not always through our trophies that come with our strengths and gifts.

The Mark of Encounter: When God Leaves You Different

Winston: Yeah. I’m reminded here that the wound for Jacob, his hip being displaced, that injury is undeniable. You can’t not tell that Jacob is injured. If any of us listening or watching have a hip injury and we start walking around and we’re limping, it’s clear. It said he had a limp. Most people who care about us are going to be like, “What happened?”

Potentially, if he’s injured in any other place, it would be easier to conceal it or hide it. But God specifically touches his hip, which is a place of strength. One of the strongest anatomical places in your body is your hip. And so you can see that even the strongest places in your life are no match for God’s power.

But just that idea that, for the Christian, you should walk differently after encountering God.

Jim: That’s so good.

Winston: There’s no way you can be a Christian without a limp. People should be able to see you and say, “What happened?”

The Poetry of Transformation and the Story That Continues

Jim: I think we can take it literally that he had a limp because he literally had a wrestling match with God. And a nuance in this text is that the word Jabbok, which is the ford there that he had to cross, the name Jacob, and the Hebrew word for wrestle—

Us being novices in Hebrew, if we had someone who spoke Hebrew fluently and they were to pronounce each of those three words I just mentioned—Jabbok, Jacob, and wrestle in Hebrew—they would sound to us identical.

And I think the nuance of the Hebrew genre is storytelling. And inside storytelling, there is poetry. So even though I can’t parse the poetry out in its original language, what I can say is that the writer wants us to see the beauty and the poetry in seeing a man transformed.

So did he really walk with a literal limp the rest of his life? I’m going to say he did. But even if he didn’t, what the Bible is saying is that everyone could see, to your point, that this man had been changed.

Winston: Wow.

Jim: I think we can leave this chapter here at 32. What do we have up for next? Chapter 33.

Winston: The meeting.

Jim: The meeting. So all this led up to the meeting, which we haven’t even talked about.

Winston: Jacob and Esau.

Jim: All right. Hopefully we’ll be together for that here soon. Thanks for joining us on the Today Counts Show, The Genesis Project.

Outro

Winston: Thanks for spending part of your day with us on the Today Counts Show.

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And remember, real change doesn’t happen someday. It happens today. Until next time, keep showing up, keep building, keep making today count.
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