Episode 210: Discipleship That Lasts: Bridging Generations, Speaking with Purpose & Leading Like Jesus

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Today Counts Show Episode 210

Preview

Winston: People can be led astray easily when there’s no due diligence in really extracting meaning from the words, and I think we saw that from the 2020 COVID situation and what kind of happened with this mass exodus from the church, and that for so long maybe things were being said like, “Man, Jesus is love,” but did we unpack love biblically? Because for most people thinking “Jesus is love,” that means tolerance.

Jim: Have you read some of Jesus’s words?

Winston: He literally said, “I came to split up families.”

Jim: Yes, he did.

Appreciation of our Supporters

Winston: Hey, before we jump into the podcast, we want to thank all our donors and supporters who make the Today Count Show possible. It’s through your generosity that we’re able to shape leaders through this content and this podcast. Be sure to like, subscribe, and follow wherever you find yourself coming across this content. All right, let’s get to the podcast.

Introduction

Winston: Jesus said, “Go and make disciples,” almost 2,000 years ago. What does that look like today? And is it even happening? Discipleship isn’t a new concept, but can discipleship evolve? Does it need to look different?

On the Today Count Show, I’m your co-host, Winston Harris, joined by Jim Piper. Jim, how we doing today?

Jim: Doing well.

Winston: Doing well, man. A new friend of the show, Carson Murphy, joining us today. How you doing, brother?

Carson: Doing good. Happy to be alive.

Winston: Come on.

Jim: Good to have you here.

Winston: Come on. Carson’s made a few cameos in our reels, so you might recognize him from social media, primarily lifting weights, but yeah.

Carson: That’s my new identity. That’s what I’ve been labeled as the guy who lifts weights.

Winston: The guy who lifts weights. I used to. I’m getting to be the old guy now. But hey, we’re talking about discipleship today. Generationally, we have three generations here represented. You just mentioned, Jim, that we’re missing Gen X, but we’ve got a millennial here. We’ve got a baby boomer.

Jim: A young baby boomer.

Winston: Yeah, we’ve got to clarify that. Then we’ve got Gen Z. Carson, where do you fall on that spectrum? Do you know on the Gen Z spectrum? Are you older, younger? How old are you, by the way?

Carson: I’m 25. I want to say I’m in the middle, to be honest.

Winston: Yeah, I think that sounds right.

Discipleship Across Generations: Definitions and Structure

First Impressions of Discipleship

Discipleship as a Modern Church Buzzword

Winston: And so, when we come to this idea of discipleship, this is kind of a buzzword in Christendom right now in the church world, and there are almost seemingly generationally different definitions of the word discipleship. Just kind of starting off here, what comes to mind, Jim, as a baby boomer, when you hear discipleship?

A Boomer’s Emotional and Communal Vision of Discipleship

Jim: When I think about discipleship, I have all kinds of memories that go from the time I was younger to where I am today, but I guess there’s an emotion-driven image that I have in my head, which is a gang of people hanging out together who share a common thread, and they are trying to live that out. I also see a dynamic of not necessarily the rabbi leader, although there’s usually one in that group in my imagination, but the most exciting thing is that group itself cross-pollinates and helps each other grow. That’s kind of what’s in my head.

Winston: What about you, Carson? What do you think?

Peer Support and Shared Burdens in Younger Discipleship

Carson: For me, discipleship, from my own perspective and experiences, has been just a group of guys and even girls that can come together, share ideas, carry each other’s burdens, and help navigate life, especially from a young age when we’re trying to figure things out. Sometimes it can be a little nerve-wracking to go to our parents or someone who may not understand growing up in life nowadays. So it’s confiding in a friend and saying, “Dang, I’m struggling with this. I’m feeling heavy here,” and helping each other out wherever we can.

Winston: That’s great. I love the perspective you painted there, which sounds like this is almost specific more to those around your age specifically. Can you unpack that just a little bit more when you said those who don’t understand?

Generational Gaps and the Need for Understanding

Carson: Yes. I’ve talked to my parents, and I’ll explain to them certain things in my life that I’m dealing with or trying to work at. For instance, social media. They don’t exactly see social media as a career path that you can make money in, but obviously, growing up and seeing all these people building a phenomenal career out of it, I see one thing and they see another.

So just there, you can kind of tell there’s a generational difference, but in the same way, they can offer me a unique perspective that’s different from my own that helps me to have a well-rounded perspective of life.

From Programs to Organic Community

Winston: Yeah, for sure. This is a leadership podcast, and this concept of discipleship can bleed into the marketplace, into our faith journeys. As we’re trying to wrap our minds around discipleship and leading others and being part of a community, we’ve kind of established that this isn’t a solo endeavor, that you have to subject yourself to community. Jim, can you talk us through maybe what discipleship “used to look like”? There may be some traditional ideas or even how you’ve seen it in different times of your leadership in previous season versus today.

Jim: Yeah, I think if you think about the baby boomer generation, you could think a lot about manufacturing. Not that any of us did manufacturing, but it kind of came from the industrial revolution. It kind of came from the industrial revolution, so there had to be a starting place, step one, step eight. In fact, we would even define what discipleship looked like in those steps. Once you did this, check that off. Once you do that, check that off, check that off.

So, I would say we would also start with people in the church, which is totally different than how I think today. You would start discipleship, it would be a literal program. You would have material, and the Bible was probably not the center of the material.

Winston: Interesting.

Jim: It was one of the extracurricular.

Winston: It was a supplement.

Jim: Supplement to that. I can think of some programs that I really liked and some that I didn’t, but it was definitely school.

The Effectiveness of Structure and Gen Z’s Commitment

Structure, Freedom, and Different Personality Types

Winston: Obviously, there are pros and cons. There are pros to that approach, the structure, the consistency, but it almost seems like, I’m living in between these realities. I’ve been benefits of that, but it also sometimes seems like, especially in 2026, it’s fallen short, and it’s almost like maybe we swung the pendulum too far and it’s overprogrammed and overstructured, and it’s removed some of the life and organic engagement out of it.

Carson, from your perspective, what does discipleship look like when you think about programs, a class, or certain types of content? What Jim just described, is that appealing, whether you or those in your community that you walk with.

Personality Types and How People Engage Discipleship

Carson: From what I’ve seen, it does fall into personality types. It’s honestly kind of interesting. You’ll see some people who like structure, the programing, the “If you tell me to go here, I’m going to go here.” And then there’s the, I hate to say, more rebellious side, but they’re more freethinkers that don’t really like a set-in-stone pathway, but they like to wander and kind of go about their way. So, I’ve kind of seen both sides.

I would definitely say for my generation, the free-flowing is definitely what seems to be the more popular trend than the strict, narrow-path programming.

Revival vs. Ritual: The Tension Shaping a Generation

Winston: Yeah. And I’ve seen a few different things out here. I’ll read some statistics in a little bit, but I’ve seen a lot on this return to Catholicism and this return to the sacraments.

Jim: High church.

Winston: High church and this desire for seemingly more structure. And then I’ve seen the desire for “revival” and these spiritual encounters and these genuine, authentic, seemingly hyperspiritual moments. And so there is this tension, there’s this hybrid in our day where Gen Z and the younger generation is searching for something. I think more is what we can kind of put that umbrella around.

Gen Z Religious Statistics and the Shift to Authenticity

Commitment Among the Committed

Winston: But some statistics here: only 45% of adults under 30 identify as Christians. So Gen Z at large is the least religiously affiliated generation in US history. But of those who actually are Christians or churchgoers, they are the most frequent compared to Gen X and boomers. And so they go to church about 1.9 times a month, or 23 times per year.

And so there’s this kind of interesting concept that at large Gen Z is the least religiously affiliated, but in the grouping, those who have made the decision to pursue religion, there’s seemingly a stronger commitment and a stronger desire. What do we think maybe has influenced that? What do we think is spurring that on?

There’s some thoughts here about since the pandemic, things have shifted and that really exposed some things. But within that idea of this current generation seemingly at large not as religiously interested, the ones who have made a commitment seem to be on fire.

Cultural Realities, Distrust, and Temperament

Achievement Culture, Language, and Leadership

From Achievement to Relationship: A Shift in Discipleship Culture

Jim: I think that Carson’s insight into temperament or personality is true because he triggered something. Going back to the manufacturing idea, that’s probably not as good of an analogy as achievement. Boomers are very achievement-oriented. And so, if we’re going to create a discipleship process, it’s going to be very pragmatic. It appealed to children of boomers because you’re under your parents’ umbrella, and it has a lot of influence whether it fit you or not.

Whereas today, what I notice is that just Carson’s statement about talking to a peer about things he’s going through now, maybe I was different than the rest of my peers, but I don’t really remember talking to my peers about my problems. It was pull yourself up by your bootstraps kind of a deal.

Why Language Matters in Reaching People

One other thing that I wanted to say that I think you’re asking too is a lot of these statistics come from how the question is word smithed.

And what I’m learning, and what I practice because of what I’m learning, and I know I can take this too far, is I speak to everyone as if they are a believer. So, I don’t change my vocabulary. I don’t have a real churchy vocabulary, and I’ve never—

Winston: What do you mean by that?

Jim: Churchy, praise the Lord, hallelujah. I use maybe more middle-of-the-road– If you do study personality, that’s my personality. I go pretty wide in reaching. And I didn’t even know that because you just do what you do, and then as you start becoming more self-aware, you realize why you do that. So, I would say, well, God did that, or what is God telling you, or how do you think God thinks about that? Do you include God in your thinking when you’re navigating? And I use that terminology with everybody, whether you’re in the church or—

So, in other words, I may not say to a guy I don’t know, what is the Holy Spirit telling you? I don’t think that’s required for salvation. So instead, what I do is I make an assumption. In most cases, even if someone comes from, say, a true Orthodox Jewish background, which has no room, they don’t have any theological concept for Christ. It’s not that they’re rejecting Christ. They have no theological framework for Christ.

Peer Discipleship and Guardrails

Discipleship as Leadership, Not Just Content

So, when I think of discipleship, just to take another middle word, I go back to my Bank of America days where they would send me away for a week for some hard training and whatever, but it was always supplemented by a leader, good or bad. So to me, it’s probably a lot of things what discipleship is, what is leadership. At this retreat, though it was technically a secular retreat that I led, just came back from, the content that I provided feels more like a Bible study and a chapter and verse.

But that’s to my point. I just say if I think the scripture says something better than any other business book, why would I use a business book? Do you understand? But I can’t say that’s how it’s always been. I think when I was learning my way, I probably consciously or subconsciously compartmentalized the practice of my faith. Not that I was a robber at night and a good guy during the day, but I let the environment inform me instead of me informing the environment.

Peer-to-Peer Discipleship and the Need for Accountability

Winston: Yeah. And you mentioned something about just a leader being present, essentially. Carson, maybe you can share some insight. I’ve had different conversations with Gen Z and even younger, some high school students in our church, and what I’ve seen and heard is almost this desire for this peer-to-peer leading, this peer-to-peer grouping, discipleship. What’s your take on that? Are there any concerns?

I had a recent conversation with a friend, a younger student, and I was like, “Are y’all crafting these messages and running it by anybody, or are y’all—is there any checks and balances there?” And so, what’s your experience been with that?

Trust, Discernment, and Guarding Your Inner Circle

Carson: So, especially one of these lines that always kind of sticks with me in that is, I owe everyone love but not access. That’s what one of my favorite pastors, Philip, he preached about, is we owe everyone love and respect, but we also have to guard our hearts and make sure that we’re not revealing too much to certain people because obviously certain people can twist. They won’t understand where we’re coming from. They may not understand our suffering, or they may take it and get offended by it.

So for me, I definitely don’t divulge a lot of my stuff to just anyone. People that I know are walking with Christ, that are heavily rooted in faith, those are the people that I tend to kind of confide in. And then there’s people that I refrain from saying certain things around just because I know they may use it against me, as has been used against me before. So having that discernment there of knowing who I can speak freely around and who I can’t is definitely a huge thing that any young person confiding in someone needs to be aware of.

Familiarity, Boundaries, and the Long Game

The Balance Between Peer Support and Spiritual Authority

But I definitely do think it is nice to have someone who’s my age to be able to say, “Hey, I’m struggling with this.” And he’s like, “Hey, you know what? Me too. Let’s work on this to hold each other accountable.” I think that’s valuable. But I also do think it’s important that there is a leader, maybe someone older in a different generation, that can also be able to interject and be like, “I love the energy there. I love the proactiveness, but let’s be careful of this,” just to kind of keep those railings, to be like, “Hey, just be mindful of this, but we love what you’re doing.” I think that’s ultimately what would be ideal.

Jim: That’s pretty powerful stuff you just shared. I mean, that’s leadership stuff. I think one of my mentors told me, not in a Bible context, in a life context, he said, in general, be careful. Then he said, when it comes to the people who you are ministering to—he didn’t use that term—leading, be friendly but not familiar.

Winston: Wow.

Jim: And I’ve never forgotten it. And so, who can you be familiar with? Well, that’s important to find that in your life, but it’s not the general population.

Cultural Pressure and the Hunger for More Than Success

Winston: Yeah. So, as a millennial, there’s all kinds of almost like memes at this point about how our generation has seen literally some of the worst of humanity, right? There are all kinds of just chaos generationally. We’ve seen all this kind of stuff and the effects that that can have on a desire for more than just reality, more than just a paycheck, more than just the American dream.

And if we’re getting into this kind of cultural, how challenging our world is right now and some of the pressures and the demands pressing in on people and them not being satisfied with what was, and maybe that bleeds into the church and people not being satisfied with how discipleship had been in the previous season and maybe it’s somehow not meeting the needs of the current realities, what are some of those cultural things from different perspectives?

I know for Gen Z, authenticity versus authority, that’s a thing, right? You’ve already kind of mentioned the impact of social media and the digital stuff, but Carson, can you speak to maybe just some of the cultural realities of the day that maybe previous generations don’t quite have a sense of that are different for y’all?

Authenticity, Social Media, and Growing Distrust

Carson: Yeah, like you said, authenticity over authority. I’ve definitely noticed that in my generation where, especially with social media, there’s so much information and a lot of misinformation out there. As a result of that, that kind of leads to a distrust in certain institutions, distrust in a different generation where they’re like, “They just don’t understand, they don’t get it.” So it kind of causes people to draw away and confide in themselves more.

From what I’ve seen, just with TikTok, we see people in high places with high influence influencing the younger generation the wrong way. What I’ve noticed is a lot of it’s a my way or the highway, the self-exaltation instead of kind of surrendering to God. For one, that’s what I’ve noticed, is a lot of the people who can’t believe or choose not to believe are the people who are so rooted in themselves.

So that’s what I’ve noticed, is people are wanting to be like, “Oh, it’s my way, my preference,” and kind of do what they think is right and what they want to do rather than surrendering to God and walking with Him. Because, I mean, this right here is an offensive book. When I started reading, I was getting hit in the face left and right. So, I mean, it humbles you really quick, and then it’s easy to get offended and be like, “Nah, I’m not going to.”

Deconstruction, Cancel Culture, and Generational Misunderstanding

That’s what I’ve kind of noticed, is people kind of stick to their own guns instead of being like, “Hmm, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe there’s something that I’m not considering.” And they kind of just don’t want to have the humbleness to accept that and seek out the truth is what I’ve seen.

Deconstruction and the Generational Divide

Winston: You mentioned they don’t understand. I feel like that is not unique to Gen Z, but can you speak to your experience if they don’t understand, and even your younger days of growing up and either being discipled or being on the other side of it and feeling like people have told you, you don’t understand?

Structure, Commitment, and the Question of True Transformation

Jim: Gosh, that’s actually a hard question. That’s a hard question. One thing I’m learning sitting at this table is, in spirit, I feel you guys, but man, I’ve come from a different planet. For example, the topic’s discipleship, right? And one of the things I’ve noticed is that the come-and-see approach is something that I liked because you could create an inspiring environment. But again, my idea was everybody come. But one of the things that would frustrate me is how wide open the back door was. So that brings up the discipleship thing.

And so, I don’t know if it’s right or wrong, but what we noticed is that when we put really strong boundaries and made it a little more formal and made it, you know, you’re making a commitment to this, that kind of a thing—

Winston: This is at your church?

Jim: This is in my early ministry days, we saw north of 90% involvement completion. But the question remains, was it intellectual or was it spiritual? I think, to be frank, my generation is dominating. It’s a dominating generation. We believe certain things. And this deconstruction of Christianity is something that’s got us shaking our heads. You want to talk about perversion and arrogance as if the Bible was put together by three jokers, and they don’t even do the research and what it took.

Was there all kinds of chaos and darkness through the history of the church? Yeah. And you should study that. You should know church history all the way back to Constantine and even before that, and that will humble you. That way, you don’t become an institutionalist to the point of dying on that cross. But at the same time, the individualism does not please God. He didn’t make us to do that.

Cancel Culture and the Loss of the Long Game

From our perspective, what we don’t understand is what happened to the long game. We might be a domineering generation, but we generally do not give up on you. And we don’t understand the cut-off stuff. Everybody’s cutting everybody off.

Winston: Cancel culture.

Jim: Cancel culture, it’s just the strangest thing. So, I think it almost intimidates us to where a lot of us aren’t even in the game anymore. A lot of my friends are fishing every day. But I think about my grandkids and I think about my kids, and I’m going, what ears do they have? Because these sound bites on social media, these really clever, silver-tongued Bible clarifiers, I don’t think— “That’s not what it really means.” How many times have I heard that?

Winston: Yeah, that is what it means.

Jim: Yeah. Okay, I’m going to follow you because you’re saying that’s not what it really means. Oh, you know what it means. Okay, so I’m going to follow you.

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Social Media’s Deceptive Discipleship and the Meaning of Words

Misinformation, Clips, and Misrepresentation

Winston: I mean, there’s a thread here, real quick, that I want to lean into, and the idea that how much is culture and social media discipling people more than the church is, potentially?

Jim: It obviously is having a massive impact.

Carson: Yeah.

Jim: For sure.

Carson: And one of the things I’ve noticed in my generation is a lot of the people walking away from God is because they’re listening to people who don’t know God, and they’re being turned away from faith because of the people misrepresenting faith. A lot of that misrepresentation comes from social media, from what I’ve noticed, because anyone can clip a podcast video and manipulate it to be one meaning, but it’s completely out of context. And a kid who doesn’t know any better sees that clip, and now they have a perception of God that’s not true.

That’s kind of the dangerous thing with social media, is how it can be easily manipulated to fill an agenda based on whoever’s posting rather than actually taking the time to seek out the truth, to know the truth, and be like, sounds good, but is it good? That’s one thing that has kind of been frustrating me, is I’ve been seeing stuff, and as I dive in deeper in my faith, I’ll read something in here, and then I’ll see something on social media that is talking about it but completely goes in the opposite direction. I’m like, and if I didn’t know any better, I would have believed that because it sounds good. But again, just because it sounds good, is it good?

Judgment, Condemnation, and Linguistic Drift

Jim: Can I interject something here that I think fits with what you’re saying, particularly with this social media thing? I’ve been intimidated by it probably for about a decade because it’s been going on longer than that, and it’s a new cultural phenomenon that’s both inside and outside of the church. And finally, in fact, in the next book I’m working on, I’ve dedicated probably a few pages just to this one thing.

From Leadership Strength to Cultural Taboo: The Shift in “Judgment”

I think I am so sick and tired of saying don’t judge. And what’s really interesting to me is that if you go back a hundred years and you read some of the best management leadership stuff, one of the things that they’re most looking for in a leader is that the leader makes good judgments. When you think about the person who wears that black robe, we call a judge. We tell kids about stranger danger. We say look both ways before we cross the street. I know I’m looking for a man of sound judgment.

Scripture vs. Soundbites: How “Don’t Judge” Gets Misused

Then, of course, the TikTok stuff will say Jesus said don’t judge. Jesus said stop judging, and think about that: the measure in which you judge, you will be judged. I just don’t understand how scripture is so twisted. So there, I think part of the demonic work that goes on is what I would call a downward slope of linguistic evolution.

What’s really interesting is one of the temperament assessments that we use that goes all the way back to Ezekiel chapter 1 uses judging as a quality of a person. And so, I don’t know, I think to counter discipleship from social media, we’ve got to be on social media too. That we’ve got to say, “Hey, all you cutie pies out there, don’t want to judge.” And pastors say it, and I probably have said it. But now, every time we say don’t judge, we’re probably going to have to explain that more.

Love, Tolerance, and Biblical Meaning

Clarifying the Difference Between Judgment and Condemnation

Because I think what we’re saying is stop condemning one another. And so that’s what I mean by the long game. Once you condemn somebody, meaning it’s final, it’s done, it’s a fixed mindset, there’s no hope, well then you’ve condemned somebody to whatever, and you’ve left them there in the past, and they will always be that. That’s condemning. Okay. I think that’s what we’re trying to say.

Winston: Yeah. Words have meaning.

Jim: They do have meaning.

Winston: Words have meaning.

Jim: So, I’m kind of pissed off about that one.

Winston: Yeah. No, that’s real. I literally just saw a reel—

Jim: You see my baby boomer part come out there. I’m just going–

Winston: Come on.

Jim: I’m going maybe we’re going to create a new church called the First Judgment Church.

Winston: Oh, wow. We just swung the pendulum.

Jim: No, we’re not going to do that. That’s a really bad idea.

Social Media, Satire, and the Collapse of Definitions

Winston: I literally saw a reel the other day, and it was basically making fun of another reel. And the other reel started with, “I’m a Christian that doesn’t believe in God.” And then the guy who was making fun of that reel interjects and says, “No, you can’t do that. You literally can’t do that because words have meanings. You can’t just say you’re a Christian and do anything you want.”

I think that’s a great point on the social media side, that we know scripturally Satan is the father of lies, right? And so linguistically, if you can water down words and if you can just kind of make whatever sound whatever, and you know, I didn’t mean that, but that’s what I said, people can be led astray easily when there’s no due diligence in really extracting meaning from the words.

And I think we saw that from the 2020 COVID situation and what kind of happened with this mass exodus from the church, and that for so long maybe things were being said like, man, Jesus is love. But did we unpack love biblically? Because for most people, thinking Jesus is love, that means tolerance.

Jim: Have you read some of Jesus’s words?

Winston: I mean, He literally said, “I came to split up families.”

Jim: Yes, He did. I just read that in my quiet time the other day. That’s troublesome.

Winston: And so it’s just this, back to the idea that words have meaning, and social media can definitely impact and disciple people with misinformation.

Discipleship in 2026: Presence, Accountability, and Christ-Centered Leadership

Discipline, Accountability, and Growth

Jim: Speaking of words having meaning, you brought the topic on the table: discipleship. What does the word mean? It comes from the idea of discipline. It comes from the idea of following somebody. So, wouldn’t that include learning how to make good judgments? I mean, so I guess what I would throw in is sometimes to me discipleship feels kind of soft.
It doesn’t have to be mean. Sometimes it shouldn’t be mean.

Winston: There’s kind of accountability built into it.

Jim: Well, you played division one ball.

Winston: Division two.

Jim: Division two ball.

Jim: Did you—

Winston: You did too.

Jim: Okay. So, I’ll tell you right now, in wrestling, I never got better if I didn’t wrestle somebody that was better than me. I mean, if the practices were easy, you would see it in the third period of my match. If the practices were hard, you would see it in the third period of my match. Yeah. So, I’m kind of letting out some of my thoughts about discipleship, I guess.

What Discipleship Should Look Like Today

Winston: With this emphasis on cultural discipleship and social media, there seems to be this almost dissatisfaction and this unveiling of, you mentioned, so much fake news and misinformation. And so there is this draw to authenticity, to real, to interpersonal connection. When we get into 2026 and we’ve kind of looked at all the challenges that we’ve seen thus far with discipleship, what could it or should it look like today?

What are some ways that we want to be intentional, or if this was us three deciding what discipleship looks like going forward, what does that look like? What should it look like? We’ve talked about programs versus relational. We’ve talked about—you know, we haven’t talked about it—but is it just Sunday, or what does it look like outside of Sundays, right? That’s been a part of the challenge, at least in the West with faith. Is it just being this one-hour kind of dedication? Wonder why we don’t see transformation. But what could it look like today?

Beyond Sundays: Making Discipleship a Daily Practice

Carson: I definitely do think it should obviously be filled with going to church because church calls for fellowship. And I do think it needs to be an everyday thing, whether that’s calling a buddy and being like, “Hey, how can I be praying for you?” So, I definitely do think that love, grace, and empathy need to be there of being there to support each other.

But I also do think that just that fire of taking God seriously and being like, like you said, if we’re going to commit to this, we’re going to commit to it. We’re going to take pride in it, and we’re going to defend it. And that’s where that accountability comes in, where if I see my buddy acting foolish, doing things he shouldn’t be doing, I go over and I’m like, “Hey, you’re better than this. Let’s do it from a loving, respectful way,” but call him up instead of just letting him do it.

And that’s where I’ve kind of noticed, throughout the gospels, Jesus would be loving and He would pick those up who were in need, but He was also stern and like, “Hey, you better.” I think that’s—

Real-Life Discipleship: Learning Through Relationships

Jim: Have you seen that work in your relationships and tribes? That’s awesome.

Winston: Yeah. One of my good friends from church, Parker. He’s someone that we’ll both disciple each other. He’ll lift me up when I’m feeling heavy, but at the same time he’s like, “Hey, man.”

Jim: I love Parker.

Winston: He’ll call me up.

Jim: Shout out Parker, if you’re watching.

Jim: Hey, Parker.

Calling People Up, Not Just Picking Them Up

Carson: But yeah, I mean, the whole reason I got into the usher team and leading that is because Parker. I was on guest services and I was just doing that, and he was like, “Hey man, they really need someone on the usher team, and you’d be great for it.” I was like, “I don’t know.” And he goes, “I signed you up already, so you have to do it.” I was like, “Sweet. All right.”

Winston: That’s discipleship.

Jim: That’s fantastic.

Carson: So he called me up, and he pushed me, and he got me out of my comfort zone, and he made me better for it. And now I’m so thankful for the opportunity to be able to do that. I think that’s what more of everyone in any generation needs to do, is having that love and picking each other up, but also calling each other up at the same time.

Discipleship Starts with Intentional Leadership

Jim: I like how you are describing discipleship because I think there’s an idealism in that that is really powerful. And sooner or later, even though I came from a very independent culture, achieving culture, that kind of thing, I think always deep down you want to have a jersey and you want your number on it, but you want it to be the same color. You want to be part of the team.

I guess the way I would answer the question, for me, discipleship starts with the leader. And if I take a look at how Jesus did it, He had a ton of people that He could have “discipled”, but that’s not what He did. What He did is He chose a select number. And He had a long game in that. So for me, I guess that’s my focus, saying, “God, who have You put in my life that is there for a reason, and whether they know they’re being discipled or not is even beside the point, at least for a while?” So that’s what comes to my mind, anyway.

Community, Multiplication, and Being Rooted in Christ

Winston: I kind of want to lean in here on Gen Z real quick in the example you gave because the scripture is pretty clear: go and make disciples. And there’s this multiplication idea and there’s this duplication, not out of yourself, but Paul said, “Follow me as I follow Christ,” right?

And so, in this what seems like hypercommunal desire for Gen Z where there’s this not necessarily a leader leading a community, but a community leading a community, can you talk me through, from your perspective or what you’ve seen, how does a disciple make a disciple in that context? Because it seems like disciples maybe are influencing disciples, but are you making disciples?

Rooted First: Why Relationship with Christ Comes Before Discipling Others

Carson: So that’s at least from the way that I speak. Obviously, Jesus is my leader. And obviously people like—for instance, I know we’ve had Bible studies and it’s been so helpful for me. But in my mind, to be a good disciple is to have first a relationship with Christ and to have intimacy with Him and bearing fruit of His spirit and allowing Him to lead.
I mean, how can anyone be a disciple if they don’t have a relationship with God?

That’s my mentality of it. And it’s pursuing relationship with Him and just picking up your cross and following Him like He says. And in doing that, being able to lead someone else who’s struggling with faith, obviously there are days that the Holy Spirit speaks through us and we’re on fire. Kind of planting seeds in other people is the way I see it but also having those constraints.

Like I said earlier, being able to come to a leader in the church who’s dedicated their life to knowing Christ, who’s in their Word as well, that can guide me as a leader as well as helping me to disciple my friends. So, I definitely do think community discipling community is scary, especially just with the flesh and how it works and the devil being so crafty. But I think first and foremost it has to be rooted in Jesus and allowing Him to lead your life. I feel like that’s what makes a disciple.

Authentic Leaders and Present Leadership

Winston: Yeah. And Jim, you’ve had proximity to, especially within our church, the young adult community. What are some things that you enjoy seeing? What are some concerns that you see?

Jim: Well, I love what I’m seeing. I just think about the young adults at the church that we all are a part of, and it seems to be pretty real to me, meaning truly seeking. In my day, seekers were the not believers yet. And today it feels like it’s more a community that is leaning toward God and seem to—and I really am grateful that Gen Z seeks authenticity versus authority. Maybe not versus, but over authority might be a better choice of words because I feel more comfortable in that environment.

And maybe I’m wrong about it. Maybe I’m not in all the dark corners, but to me it seems like Gen Z has a respect for people in general: older, younger, same age. Again, I don’t think that’s so true about my generation. We were just fiercely independent. I like that. I don’t know how to do that as well.

Honest Questions and Real Conversations in Faith

So I see that in just the questions. Oh, and the questions that do come to me, I never got those questions. So that’s another evidence. Because the questions that were given to me 20, 30 years ago, they were cleaned-up questions. I probably knew what they were trying to get to, but now, I remember one time I was in the parking lot at the church and I’m walking, getting in my truck, and all of a sudden I hear this window come down.

So, it was dark. Well, what the heck? There’s this—I won’t get into the detail of what they asked—but this young man and this young woman were there, and they just flat-out asked me a raw question right there. And I mean, it was a raw question. This is what we’re doing. This is why we’re doing it. What do you think? And wow, that saves a lot of time.

Winston: They’re not beating around the bush. Yeah. And just starting to land the plane, but this idea of—you kind of said it—authenticity over authority. How important, Carson, is it to have authentic leaders versus leaders that are just really good at facilitating programs?

Defining an Authentic Leader

Carson: Having authentic leaders, it just has to happen. As if it’s—

Jim: And what is that? What is an authentic leader?

Carson: Someone who, to me, someone who’s rooted in Christ, someone who’s genuine and honest, who’s not going to sit here and chase after hype and just exalt themselves, but is going to be willing to also lead, be stern, call people up, minister to people, but also be like, “Hey, I’m still human. I’m weak in my flesh just the same as you.” So in the same way that I’m directing you and leading you in this way, fact-check me with this.

Pointing People to Christ, Not Ourselves

And that’s what I always try to do. To the friends who I have that are trying to grow their faith, they ask me questions and I’ll help them and I’ll lead them in that direction, but I’m like, at the same time, I’m weak in my flesh. I struggle with spiritual warfare. I’m not perfect. So everything that I’m saying and leading you, fact-check me and dive into this because I know I’m not, as our culture would say, all that and a bag of chips. I know I’m not.

Jim: I’ve never heard that.

Carson: And I’m not going to sit here and say that I am. That’s what I try to emphasize, is I’ll lead you, I’ll help you, I’ll direct you, and I’ll minister and disciple you, but don’t be a disciple of me. Don’t be a disciple of Carson. Be a disciple of Christ. Because I’m not anything special.

Final Reflections on 2026 Discipleship

Present Over Perfect: The Leadership People Actually Need

Winston: Yeah. It’s almost this idea of people don’t need perfect leaders. They need present leaders. Present leaders. And somehow generationally, at times, it can feel like maybe there’s a lack of presence and there’s programs over presence. And I think especially in this generation, this day and age, I mean, I would even say millennials, anybody who’s paying attention to what’s happening in the world is like, “Oh, we need Jesus, and we need people who know Jesus to show us what does it look like to know Jesus.”

Jim: And know His agenda versus what we think it should be. Otherwise, we’re going to do what they did 2,000 years ago. Do we want Jesus to come so that we and Iran would get along, or China, or North Korea, or Russia? Is that what we’re thinking?

Grounding Discipleship in Scripture

Winston: As we land the plane, I had noted 2 Timothy 3:16-17. You mentioned, Carson, fact-checking a leader. All scripture is God-breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. And I think that’s a picture of discipleship. There’s no cookie-cutter. There’s no perfect program.
Do we need structure programs? For sure. Do we need community? For sure. Do we need authentic leaders? For sure. None of it can happen without God’s Word. I think we can all agree on that. And any last thoughts here on what you think 2026 discipleship should be, or what we should focus on within discipleship in 2026?

Final Challenge: Pursuing Christ Wholeheartedly

Carson: Pursuing Christ with all your heart. That’s what I’ve been trying to do, and doing that unashamed, knowing I’m going to make mistakes, but doing it wholeheartedly, honestly, and genuinely has changed my life. Recommend for anyone.

Jim: Yeah. I would add, and it’s similar to something Carson already said, and I’m speaking to my generation mostly, and I’m not trying to guilt anybody, I really am not, but when those of us who are in our 60s and 70s spend less time golfing and fishing, or if we are going to go golfing and fishing, who are we going with? When you’re willing to invest your discretionary time into, in my case, men, that makes a big statement. And I only know that because they tell me that. I don’t think that highly of myself where someone would think, oh, but I guess we just kind of walk past each other in life.

Winston: Well, today counts because who you’re discipling today shapes what the church, what your city, and what our world will look like tomorrow.

Outro

Winston: Thanks for spending part of your day with us on the Today Count Show. If today’s conversation encouraged you, challenged you, or helped you grow, share it with someone in your circle because we’re better when we grow together. And be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and stay connected with us on Instagram, YouTube, LinkedIn, and Facebook. And remember, real change doesn’t happen someday, it happens today. Until next time, keep showing up, keep building, keep making today count.
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