Episode 156: The Tower of Babel, Spirit of Babylon, & Human Innovation (Genesis 11:1-9 Study)

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Today Counts Show Episode 156

Preview

Gary: It says, make a name for ourselves. What does that have to do with it?

Winston Harris: Somewhere in us all there’s a need for recognition. There’s a need for brand. There’s a need to elevate ourselves literally or figuratively. It’s not like they had an audience watching, right? Like they’re all in the same place. They all speak the same language. Who are they trying to get recognition from?

Appreciation of our Sponsor

Winston Harris: Hey, everybody. Before we jump into today’s episode, we’d like to recognize all those who make this podcast possible. The Today Counts Show is supported by the generous donors of the Lead Today Community. Thank you so much for investing in shaping leaders through this podcast. And be sure to like and subscribe on whatever platform you are watching or listening today. All right, let’s jump into the podcast.

Intro and Genesis 11:1-9:00

Jim Piper: Everybody, this is the Today Counts show. The Today Counts show is brought to you by the Lead Today community. And we’ve got a couple of lanes on this podcast. One is general leadership and social-cultural issues. And the other we are currently calling the Genesis project, where we’re walking through, my partners and I are walking through in a discussion format the biblical book of Genesis.

And as of our last episode, I’m going to hear the cheering from the background. We are 20% through Genesis, at least in a chapter form. I don’t know that we’re 20%, but we’re 20% at least in the chapter form. So that was kind of a fun thing to celebrate. If this is your first time on the Genesis project, no need to hit pause and go back to the beginning. You could do that later. Because I think that though we will be referring to things today in the past chapters and probably in the future, this is a standalone and I think you’ll get something good out of it.

We’re in Genesis 11. You might remember the Noah and the Ark story. And the Ark has landed on Mount Arrak and the occupants, which is Noah, his wife, his kids and their wives have stepped out of the Ark now and they’ve already had some time outside of the Ark. So that has happened and we’re going to kind of pick it up from there. So I’m going to be reading the first nine verses of Genesis 11 today. I have Pastor Winston Harris, I have Gary Harps with us and that we’re missing Pastor Matt. It’s too bad because I think each of us add certain things that it’s just kind of another side of God because he’s so creative. And we all have different ways of looking at things. But this will be good. We got three out of the four. So we’ll get started.

Genesis chapter 11, I’m reading from the New Living Translation, beginning in verse one, it says, “At one time, or at one place and time, I guess, at one time, all the people of the world spoke the same language, and used the same words. As the people migrated to the east, they found a plain in the land of Babylonia and settled there. They began saying to each other, let’s make bricks and harden them with fire. In this region, bricks were used instead of stone and tar was used for mortar. Then they said, let’s come build a great city for ourselves with a tower that reaches into the sky. This will make us famous and keep us from being scattered all over the world.

But the Lord came down to look at the city and the tower the people were building. Look, he said, the people are united and they all speak the same language. After this, nothing they set out to do will be impossible for them. Come, let’s go down and confuse the people with different languages. Then they won’t be able to understand each other. In that way, the Lord scattered them all over the world and they stopped building the city. That is why the city was called Babel because that is where the Lord confused the people with different languages. In this way, he scattered them all over the world.

Who wants to kick off this discussion? There’s a lot of things to talk about in here. Some we’ve already built a pretty good foundation for, I think.

“Let Us” Parallel and Trinitarian Theme

Winston Harris: Yeah, I’ll go ahead and jump in, even just as you’re reading. And I literally didn’t catch this studying for this, but I just find it interesting the parallel here. In my version, I’m reading out of the ESV, and this is verse three and verse four. It says, “Come let us, come let us make bricks, come let us build for ourselves.” And then in verse seven, God. says, “Come let us go down.” I think that’s an interesting parallel. One, I mean, we can use this as a reference for God being expressed in three persons and maybe the Trinitarian identification of who God is, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit being three expressions, one God.

Who else is he talking to, right? Or maybe he’s talking to the heavenly hosts and the other spiritual beings in heaven, but it appears to be just like, let us make man and God’s image. This theme from earlier in Genesis is being carried over. You have a group of people on earth trying to get to God and God is trying to get to man. I think that’s just an interesting parallel.

Rabbinical Teaching and Bricks as Oppression

Gary: I’ve been really influenced on how to think about this passage. I hadn’t noticed what you mentioned, Winston, this theme of “let us”. Repetition means something in Scripture, so that’s a new insight for me. But I heard a rabbinical teaching on this section, and one thing I always appreciate about the rabbinical tradition is their understanding of the Hebrew and the structure of the language. And he pointed out something I would have never noticed on my own that this was that the sequence here, it starts by saying, “Come let us make bricks.” And then later on says, “Let us build a city for us and make a name.”

He said, this sequence is telling you something because normally when you’re telling a story, you tell the vision. Then you tell the means to pursue the vision. And this reversed the order and he said that’s not an accident and he was suggesting that the story here really is about oppression and his argument was that bricks, you talk about bricks and mortar and the way they’re used in scripture, it ties to furnaces and oppression. So bricks are you know, you think about humans being forced into a brick mold and stuck together with Hormor, Hormor, whatever, the mortar, then you have here a leader that has talked these people into doing something that is evil in a sense they’re being sucked in, they’re being forced into a–

And I would have never picked up on this. He contrasted it with the instructions in, I forget where, Leviticus or someplace, that it says when you make an altar, you make it out of uncut stones. And he was contrasting what was going on here with bricks that are forced into the same shape, tyranny, versus uncut stones is what God wants His altar made out of, not man-made shapes. I would have never picked up on it. And it’s forever changed my understanding of the narrative of what’s going on here and that God is actually not punishing them, he’s rescuing them. It turned my whole understanding upside down. It was powerful.

Disobedience and the God-Shaped Void

Jim Piper: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that’s a good theme. It’s a good conclusion. Because if we just back up a little bit, yes, it’s not like we’re going to try to rush out and protect these people from doing what they’re doing. But in their own way, there’s a couple things that’s going on as I see it. One is that they didn’t like God’s idea, you know. In other words, but let’s make it less harsh. They didn’t trust God’s idea. About being spread out and thinned out and going in unknown places, kind of scary if they stay together. “Let us let us gather, let us watch each other’s back. This is a scary new, new world.”

On the other hand, by this tower that they want to build I think some of the translations when they try to emphasize heaven as if they’re trying to get to God, I don’t disagree with that in a metaphor. I think practically, I’m being the devil’s advocate here, I think practically speaking, if they wanted to reach to the highest spot, they would have started on a mountain somewhere. I saw it probably more as a elevated place where they could see out farther. But metaphorically, yes, there is God, as I understand it.

And this almost, for some people with a darker mind would see this as a verdict against God. But I believe that God created man with a God-shaped void in them. There is a void in us that we seek to fill. Even though our ways are so frail and futile that’s why we fill it with so many other things.

I think one of the things that I enjoyed about, did you guys watch that movie? You know, it was the movie about the Calvary Chapel movement. Jesus Revolution. I remember Lonnie was explaining to Chuck that these kids were going on psychedelic drug trips not because their bad but because they’re lost. And you know, not that bad and lost don’t belong in the same category, perhaps. But it does kind of differentiate a little bit. But when they go on these psychedelic trips, they feel this euphoric closeness to something that can’t be described with words.

And he was basically trying to help Chuck that they’re seeking, we’re all seeking the same thing. You know the truth. They don’t and then there was that bridge that they were trying to build. So when I when I look at these activities, yes, it’s pretty clear that they were disobedient God said, “Go, multiply, spread out.” They didn’t and they rebelled. But I think the rebellion is just a lot like our rebellion. I think there is a rebellion that has its fist against God and I think there’s a rebellion that’s kind of sheepish where we don’t believe God. And I’m not sure I see the fist against God as much as I see the fear of the people. Those are just some of my–

Making a Name and the Desire for Recognition

Gary Harpst: In that same sentence, it also says not only tower to heaven, but it says, make a name for ourselves. What does that have to do with it? I mean, connect that idea.

Jim Piper: Yeah. You know what, Gary? The other thing is, when I read that again, I thought, famous to who? That is a tricky one, famous to who?

Winston Harris: Yeah, I think this already is starting to imply the desires of man, right? Like somewhere in us all, there’s a need for recognition. There’s a need for brand. There’s a need to elevate ourselves,-

Gary: Identity.

Winston Harris: -literally or figuratively. And to your point, right, like it’s not like they had an audience watching, right? Like they’re all in the same place. They all speak the same language. Who are they trying to get recognition from other than this innate desire from this broken relationship with God that we see earlier in Genesis. And so there’s something in them that’s engineering this desire, there’s something driving them towards this decision.

And I think it’s kind of interesting that it becomes a futile effort ultimately, right? They’re trying to elevate themselves, they’re trying to build this altar to use your framework, Gary, there, it’s a pseudo altar, right? It’s something that cannot satisfy. The desire that they have can’t be satisfied by the work that they’re doing. And I think it’s a picture for us today, right? You know, in our own ways, whether you’re a stay-at-home mom, whether you’re working your nine to five, or you have a huge platform and a global influence.

Winston Harris: If you’re doing a work and you’re building something outside of Christ, it’s a futile effort and it ends up with the same way that this ends up. You’re going to end up confused. You’re going to end up scattered, maybe not geographically, but you’re going to be scattered internally. And you’re going to be away from the place that God intended you to be. So that is a great question. Why were they wanting to make a name for themselves? And I think it was their desire.

Nimrod and Leadership Lessons

Gary: Now is it your understanding that behind the scenes this is Nimrod? Do you guys believe that?

Jim Piper: You mean the leader?

Gary: Yeah.

Jim Piper: I hadn’t thought about that, but it would make sense that it would be the hero, right? Somebody who could influence.

Gary: Well, at least I’ve heard that teaching because it talks about him being in the land of Shinar, which is where you I think you said Babylonian in your translation.

Jim Piper: Well, Babylonia would be the larger territory that would encompass multiple cities.

Gary: If you assume it’s him and that’s the teaching.

Jim Piper: I don’t think that is wrong. mean, I think from the best of our recollection, know, our guessing with what we’ve been giving that makes a lot of sense. Well, I’m

Gary: building off of what Winston said, which is we have this craving for identity and purpose, and good leaders leverage that. And they can leverage it for good or for evil. And there’s other places where it talks about Nimrod being a hunter. The analogy is hunting animals. But in a sense, great leaders hunt followers.

You know, so there’s this thing going on here that somebody says, Hey, let’s build a great tower. And it gives people purpose and identity and they jump on a bandwagon and it’s, it’s a leadership lesson. It’s really powerful.

Jim Piper: Yeah, to make your point even larger, Gary, I would see, know, your average Joe, whoever that is capable, but average, he’s going to buy into something like that. Going to because he can be part of something bigger than himself. Somebody like Nimrod, he wouldn’t buy into that. He’s got to be the guy. And so those two needs, human needs come together and they meet up that way.

Plus they picked up some knowledge from Noah and just the building of the Ark using the tar and how they came up with the bricks. I don’t know, but using some translations say asphalt tar they use it as mortar. And I want go back to what Gary said about this prison kind of idea. Because there is a parallel between this tower that they were building and the Ark. The legend of the Ark might have been claustrophobic in some ways, but also it was the avenue for survival.

And it’s funny how we like the devil we know more than the devil we don’t know. And so going out into the open territory versus building an ark that may not necessarily float. But another commentator said, it might not just have been a tower to look out to see what might be coming, but it might have been a tower to avoid another flood. But then again, I’d say, well, wait a second. Again, why wouldn’t they build that on the mountain? So you can tell even with all the commentators in the study, we’re kind of scratching our head as to– But you somebody learned how to make a brick and it wasn’t an Nimrod. Nimrod saw the opportunity.

Gary: There are some parallels here that, again, were pointed out by this other teaching, but in the same region, Shinar, but later when Daniel was in captivity, you remember, well, how is it that people get drawn to a purpose? And one is persuasiveness. John Kennedy saying, let’s put a man on the moon and people say, hey, that’s a good idea, and then we really get behind it.

Another is force and coercion and those sorts of things. So in the story of Daniel, you have brick furnaces being used as the place Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, either you obey me or you will be thrown into this furnace. And the furnaces were used to make bricks. So there’s this theme in here about forcing people into a mold when God makes us unique. Every one of us has unique fingerprints. You know, we’re stones, uncut stones, and bricks are little blocks of people. So I don’t know, I just think there’s so much in this story. It’s very, very rich.

Babylon, False Religions, and Revelation

Jim Piper: Yeah, there is. The term Babylonia, Babylon, Babel, when you study world religions and cults, that is a word that is crafted and used to describe the origin, the beginning, the birthplace of all of these false religions here in Babylon, because even though Yahweh rescued them, it didn’t take long for us to go in disobedience and create our own religion. I mean that’s what was going on here. You know, and of course, this is today’s Iraq. And that’s obviously dominated by one religion.

But that term itself is kind of viewed as here’s the birthplace of all religions, well basically religion, because though the world would say that Christianity is a religion, in our most technical sense, we would not say that it is. It’s not a man-made– Although as Christians, might say Christians are doing a pretty good job of creating a religion, which we need to be careful of, right? But generally speaking, a Christian philosopher would say that following Jesus Christ is not a religion.

It wasn’t supposed to put into rules and regulations and all these things. Instead, it was a relationship, a heart matter, you know, da da da. But I found that interesting that it’s always false religions have been associated with the term Babel, Babylon, Babylonia. And I guess what made me think of that is when you mentioned those three Hebrew boys, four, if you include Daniel, right, that were in the spotlight. And there they were, stuck in Babylon.

Gary: To your point too, it’s heavily featured in Revelation. Again Babel, Babylon.

God Restricts Innovation?

Winston Harris: Do we think, this might just be a question for anybody to jump in, but do we think there’s precedent here to say that the statement would be true, God restricts innovation?

Gary: Actually, I would argue the opposite. Here’s what I mean. When you have a unified body that is single-controlled, you actually can have less innovation. So if you use in the business world, which is where I live, most of the innovation takes place in somebody that’s not controlled by Microsoft or by Google or the big companies, it takes place by some little incubator that’s out there operating by their own rules.

And so when you have a single governance, which is what Satan’s after, you don’t have the uniqueness of humanity being expressed. And you could argue that that’s part of the way God rescued us here is by putting different languages, he forced more of a federation of nations as opposed to a single unity. Our country was started with a federation. It’s not a democracy, it’s a federation, but we’re turning it into a democracy. And you know, what does the federal government try to do? It uses the money it has to control the state. So I would argue that’s less innovation, but good question.

Jim Piper: Yeah, and the more we read the Bible, isn’t it interesting to see how we can prose that the pre-incarnate Christ, I mean, when you read the New Testament without reading Hebrews and some of the other cross-references to the Old Testament, you kind of get this idea that I guess God had no other choice. Now we’re going to send Jesus, but it just sounds like Jesus has been our savior from the very beginning. He was walking in the garden and here he is in the pre-incarnate form.

It’s interesting to think, well, one day he was walking around the garden and now he’s gone. You know, the way this is listed, it’s almost like he’s surprised. “What the heck are these guys doing?” As if he didn’t know. “Look at that. These guys can do amazing things. Unfortunately, that’s not what I told him to do, because this is going to end up badly. So I’m going to scatter them. And here’s how I’m going to do it.” But like you said, Gary, he was rescuing us right there. Again.

Winston Harris: I mean, it’s interesting, history repeats, and we know from Revelation, that the end objective is to come back to one people in one language, one governance. You know, that’s what Satan wants. This was a derailed Satan by creating all these different cultures and languages. It prevented one world government, but we’re now getting the technology and the motivations to unite. You see it more and more and more.

“Nothing They Propose to Do Will Now Be Impossible”

Winston Harris: What do we do with the Lord saying, and nothing they propose to do will now be impossible for them? Like, what do we do? Do we think like, is this God’s sarcasm? what is this?

Jim Piper: I don’t know what Gary thinks. I think it’s some hyperbole, but at the same time, I think it’s almost as literal as it is hyperbole if God didn’t put borders and restraints on it. Because how do you reconcile from an accounting perspective? Now here comes my finance background. On one hand, we have been made in the image and the likeness of God. So that would lean to, yeah, these guys can pretty much do anything they want. Yet, he did not give up the reins of his sovereignty in doing that. So he has placed borders around it, but left unchecked.

What is he referring to? I mean, would God allow us, this is just a kind of fun civics philosophical question. Would God allow Russia, the United States and whomever can actually do this blow us all up to Kingdom Come? Or would he step in if the time wasn’t right? What would he do? So to me, think about it. Winston, we act like that now. We talk like that now. Just the telephone, you guys. Come on.

When they introduced a cordless phone, I couldn’t figure it out. I remember as a teenager, I’d go, “I don’t get it. I’m just not very smart, because I just don’t get how this works.” It’s funny how I would, I would accept that walkie-talkies work. But once the corded phones that were connected to the wires above my house became disconnected, it blew my mind. It absolutely blew my mind. And then just the innovation that’s out there. Yeah, I think mankind can do a lot of amazing things, but do we know how to use it? And that’s where my head goes.

Gary: You know, says there, Winston, it talks about the language and then the understanding. In that same phrase, it says, “Hey, if they can talk to each other, they might understand each other.” And boy, I mean, I look at our own family. I mean, it’s just not a day goes by where I don’t say something that what I meant doesn’t get said right or doesn’t get received right. I mean, it’s almost impossible.

Jim Piper: Yeah, you got me thinking. Family dynamics. In fact, a lot of times it doesn’t take a word. It’s just a look, it’s just a pause. It’s just a tone.

Social Progress vs. Technological Progress

Gary: I’m going to bring up something we brought back in the creation, or in the very beginning, and this is my engineer mind, so guys bear with me, but it is fascinating that in the physical realm, all of the universe is made up 98% of two atoms, hydrogen and helium, and they’re the simplest building blocks, and yet God used the laws of physics that always work the same way. And those building blocks make us and the world and trees just because of the way they’re put together. And the laws of physics always work.

But God said in Genesis, “You can have dominion over the whole world, but you’re to have to multiply to do it.” And so you’re left with, we’re two building two things. We’re building physical things, which obey the law of the physics and are predictable. And then we’re building organizations, churches, governments, businesses out of people and they are absolutely not predictable. And God says we can’t have dominion unless we can work together to do it.

I had a sociology teacher way back in my freshman year in college say, “Why is it that mankind has progressed so much technically and not at all socially?” And really, if you look, we had what, 200 million people killed in the last 100 years in wars. We haven’t changed a bit from a Cain slaying Able. We just have better technology to do it with. You know, and it’s a really profound question. And the Bible is the only place I’ve ever seen that has the answer as to why we can progress technologically and not socially. And I think God’s speaking to that here. He said, “Hey, if these people could understand each other, they could do anything,” and that anything could be evil.

Jim Piper: Yeah, I don’t think we’ve gotten past the, “I might be able to do such and such, but I still don’t understand the why I would do it.” Right? We get infatuated with, “Hey, look what I can do,” but don’t ask what good does that do or where does that end up? We don’t have that kind of foresight.

What I see here is what I said earlier. I don’t think they were conscious that they were– I think they were walking away from God, certainly. But I think as you were saying about Nimrod Gary, they were influenced and it sounded good and they saw progress. And then they get excited about their own deal. Isn’t that kind of normal human behavior when what we seem to be doing on our own is so good, we kind of forget about God? And then after a period of time, we ask, “Well, what happened? How did I get so far from God?”

Some of your basic ambitions, as you guys were talking about earlier, a purpose, fulfilling our purpose. I mean, isn’t that the same thing as saying that there’s a God, there’s a God void that God created a God void in us to seek him? He had to create a vacuum for us to seek for it is just where we go to get it. And of course, as Christians, the Lord leads us in places that just doesn’t seem logical. Isn’t that what happened here? To them, it didn’t seem logical. Why would we spread out and thin out? I wonder if they even knew. Did they know that they were alone on the planet?

Winston Harris: I mean, you would think through deductive reasoning, they just came out of a flood. Like, it’s gotta be just us, right?

Jim Piper: Well, there are some who believe that there’s other earths and that God is doing the same thing somewhere else. So, I don’t know.

God Coming Down and Assessing

Winston Harris: Which I mean, I think it’s kind of a nod to like, you mentioned the birth of other religions and all of these different ways that aren’t the actual design or the way of God. And I think it’s this reality of like dissatisfaction with God’s way. God’s way just is like, “There’s gotta be a better way. This kind of seems boring. This kind of seems like it doesn’t make sense to me.” And all of these efforts to find a different way produces evil, produces brokenness, produces all of these various experiences that are lesser than what God had designed.

And what I appreciate that’s kind of woven into the text and I kind of mentioned it earlier, but here we see a God that is willing to come down into the mess, if you will. We have this relational God that was kind of sweet. We set that up earlier in Genesis, separating himself from all the other future religions and all the other lowercase G gods that require us to come to them. This God, even when he’s being defied, is willing to come down into the situation.

And I see God as an examiner. He says, “Come, let us go down and see this.” He went down to assess, he went down to explore like, “What are they doing?” And we see that parallel or theme transition into the New Testament, where God searches the heart. God is one that searches the motives of man. He knows our desires. Even when we project correctly or even when people on the outside can’t really see that what we’re building has wrong motives, we have a God here who’s willing to come into dirty vessels, broken vessels and still search and is still willing to course correct.

I just love that angle. Like this is kind of a picture of God Emmanual in the New Testament. This is the God who came to us and to our point, is course correcting, is giving us another way trying to get us back to him.

Gary: Do you think that us is the same as in the Genesis 1, the Trinity? Is that God when it says, “Let us come down”? Do you think that’s–

Winston Harris: I think so.

Gary: I thought so too. I just wanted–

Jim Piper: So the 6th-grader asks us, “Daddy, where did all these different people come from, all these different languages?” Our answer to the 6th-grader goes like this, “There was a time where God told his people to spread out all over the world, but they were afraid and they didn’t do that. They started doing things they shouldn’t have done. So what God did is he gave different languages to the people so they had to find each other in their same language and then naturally spread out because God wanted us to multiply on the Earth. That’s why he’s a good God and that’s why we have these different languages.” Is that more or less what you would say to that 6th-grader?

Gary: I would but I think I would add one other benefit. It comes back to what Winston was saying earlier. I’m in the business world and I look at other businesses who are trying to do the same thing I do and they approached it a different way, and I say, “Oh, that’s a better idea than I had.” The same thing is true of civilizations. We look at healthcare and whatever, Europe and say, “Well, maybe that’s better,” or “Maybe that’s worse.”

Different civilizations allow innovation to take place and us to advance faster, in my opinion. And so to the sixth grader to say, “God was blessing by allowing us to be different, and then see what works what does.” It’s like a laboratory, but if we’re all doing the same thing under the same set of rules, it would’ve never had the variety we’ve got.

The Spirit of Babylon is Alive and Well

Jim Piper: Not enough room of everybody in that way, right? Because if he disperses his gifts in various ways, you’re going to have two much redundancy. Whenever things are too crowded, we have to create laws that, once again, don’t line up with God. When you say you can only have one child in our culture, that doesn’t line with that part. Sooner or later that’s going to come to get you.

I guess what I was trying to say earlier is the spirit of Babylon is alive and well. As Christians, as people who follow Jesus, we need to be careful about the way that you judge cults and false religions. When you see those shaved-headed children that are selling flower, Reverend Moon, chilly and cold, they have this heart for the father that’s being shown to him from other places. We’ve had these elaborate complicated religions of jumping through a zillion hoops to be honorable, acceptable to God why are people doing that. Because they’re desperate for God, they’re seeking God but the spirit of Babylon is–

That’s why I often don’t like lining up the message of Christ, the message of the bible and talking about which is better, which is worse, and a comparison because to me, that’s what the spirit of Babylon wants to do the followers of Christ. He wants us to build a better religion. He wants us to build something so that people are following man-made bricks and mortar that we are presenting. And it’s a big fight. You know, it’s a tough deal because am I making statements against the local church? No, I’m not. But then the local churches unite under one idea and they become a denomination. Then the typical layperson doesn’t know the difference between denominations, religions, cults. And it all just seems like the same thing. And I think that’s the spirit of Babylon.

Internet Towers and Revivals

Gary: You know, it’s Mediviscar said they understood the times and knew what to do about it. And one interesting dynamic of the internet that kind of, plays in what you said, Jim, is we don’t have to move to find our tower of Babel anymore. We can go to the internet and find a hundred or a thousand or 10,000 people who want to build a shared tower. I can find somebody who agrees with me and form my own little tower and I don’t have to move to do it and that’s unique in the history of man. Now you don’t have to move.  On the other hand, there’s revival going on. I’m hearing more and more colleges. 2,000 kids got saved in Columbus recently.

Jim Piper: Gary, it’s difficult for me to believe there’s a movement of God at Ohio State.

Gary: Well, it’s needed. Yeah, right. I didn’t notice that shirt until you–

Jim Piper: For those that are listening and not watching, Gary, of course, his team out there, among probably others, is the Ohio State Buckeyes and I’m at school from the North, University of Michigan. And if you are not aware, there’s probably not too many rivals more desperate and constantly angry at these two. So that was the–

Gary: We definitely don’t understand each other according to this passage.

Jim Piper: Both have cool helmets though. Yeah, that’s–

Gary: Winston, do you have any favorite college teams or hills you’ll die on?

Winston Harris: Definitely not hills I’ll die on, definitely not towers I’ll build around the teams. I mean, if I had to choose a team and this is solely from the movie Rudy, I would root for Notre Dame.

Gary: Oh, I love that movie.

Winston Harris: A classic sports movie that I love.

Gary: Yeah, that’s a great movie.

Winston Harris: Definitely not willing to die for Notre Dame. Definitely not willing to die.

Takeaways and Leadership Principles

Jim Piper: All right. Well, what are our takeaways? The spirit of Babylon is alive and well, and we all need to be thinking about that. We shouldn’t be striving to see which religion is closest to what is right, but we should be going after God. We have a lot of scripture that will help us with that. Being in Christian community will help us with that, seeking to understand people’s hearts. We see this first nine verses of this chapter as once again, God coming in rescuing us gifting us. I like how you said that Gary, just it’s another gift. Set us free like a like a good father. Just says, “Go out there you’ll be surprised what you can do.”

He’s involved in our lives but not to the point where he takes away our sense of curiosity, adventure, creativity. And yet he’s near and close to us and he’s created boundaries. For those who continue to try to nurture as David said, “Creating me a clean heart of God and renew his steadfast spirit within me as we just continue to seek and put our hearts before God and humble and make sure that we don’t become prideful in our biases and our anecdotal experiences, and work really hard at being around people who encourage us, but also challenge us to recognize even the needs within us.

I think that’s how you started off, Winston. These needs in us for purpose, for belonging. And these are good needs, but they’re also dangerous. If we’re not aware of, “Why am I moving in that direction? Why am I listening to that person? Why am I trying to achieve this and you know achieve that?”

Gary: I think also Winston’s point about, “let us”, the idea that God enters into the fray he doesn’t stand on his throne and he comes down to see what we’re doing. And that’s an act of love, you know. So, that’s my takeaway is Winston’s pointing out this let us theme in here, because I never noticed it before.

Winston Harris: I think it’s a leadership principle too. Leaders got to get in the weeds sometimes just to see where the people are at. A good shepherd gets into it with the sheep.

Gary: Yeah, this whole, the leadership lessons in here, Jim, are amazing. I mean, there’s vision in here, purpose, how good is it? There’s communication and like you said, Winston, being involved with people, this is rich in leadership.

Jim Piper: Yeah, we should probably pull more of those out as we have opportunity. You know, what I’m thinking about is we have the latter, the last part of Genesis 11 to talk about next time. And then when we get into Genesis 12, we start seeing the call of Abram. We see the many genealogy in the last part of this chapter that leads to Abram. So in a sense we’re seeing the dispersion from the Tower of Babel. We’re seeing, once again, another new beginning. And it’s pretty exciting because the three main world religions of course, in that analogy, I am putting Christianity in there would call Abraham the father of their faith.

So we’re going to discover and for those of you listening, what we’ve been marching through, if you haven’t been with us from the beginning, you could fit it in with the diet. Just go back to the first episode regarding Genesis 1-1. You’ll catch up to us. But one thing I love about Genesis, I don’t know how you guys feel about it, but it is like watching a really good television series where one leads to the other. And you’re so excited about what’s next. What’s next week, right? We don’t do it every week, but every couple weeks we’re doing this. And when we get to the life of Abraham, there’s going to be a big aha that’s going to happen for all of us and will help us make sense out of some of the craziness that we are all dealing with, regardless of one’s faith.

At least we can get back to our origin and humble ourselves before God and seek truth. And that’ll be fun. Good stuff.

Gary: Hey Jim, I want to celebrate the next episode coming up. It says Abraham was 75 when he departed from Heron and I’ll be 75 in about two weeks. But and you

Jim Piper: And you are in Heron.

Gary: Yeah, close to it. South of it. Yeah. So maybe there’s some adventure ahead for me. He started at 75, so yeah.

Jim Piper: And wasn’t it Colonel Sanders who started Kentucky Fried Chicken? He was he was up there.

Gary: Late 60s, I think, yeah.

Jim Piper: Yeah. I mean, who starts a business like that at that age? Right? Yeah. And then Warren Buffett hats off to Warren Buffett. That guy just–

Gary: Well, he’s 94 or something, isn’t he?

Jim Piper: Yeah, he just keeps on going he just keeps on going. He’s he amazes me. He amazes me.

Gary: Well, I’d like to hold out until Jesus comes back, but I guess we don’t know for sure when that’s happening.

Jim Piper: No, no, we don’t. But what a great nine verses this is, huh? And it really sets the stage for the next part. Then we start really getting into the patriarchs.

Gary: Yeah, that’s the beginning of whole new story.

Jim Piper: Yeah,

Jim Piper: And that’s going to– Just wait till we get to the story of Joseph, all you guys, it’s gonna be it– Like our president says, “It’s gonna be huge. It’s gonna be big.”

Gary: So Winston, what book are you preaching in this week?

Winston Harris: Well, not this coming week. Actually, Jim is up this week, the following week, Psalms 139. We’re in a sermon series in Psalms right now.

Gary: Oh. Awesome.

Jim Piper: Psalm 46.

Gary: It’ll be fun to be with you guys in church.

Jim Piper: Yeah. All right, guys. I appreciate you until next time. See you soon.

Gary: Alright, bye-bye.

Outro

Winston Harris: Thank you for joining us here at the Today Counts Show. Be sure to like and subscribe on whatever platform you listen or watch so you don’t miss any content. And stay tuned for more coming soon.
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