Episode 196: Leading the Church in a Different World: Gen Z’s Challenge

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Today Counts Show Episode 196

Preview

Mason: What it was was just maybe trusting some people in the room that I probably shouldn’t have been trusting at the time, and they went and told people. We know how that works. I definitely learned when we are making high-level decisions, decisions that will impact other leaders, decisions that will impact the whole team. The volunteers, your team members, your leaders, they need to hear it from you.

Chris: I made the decision to remove them for several different reasons without considering the person, without considering their side, without asking questions, without asking the things that I should have been asking, and completely dismissing the fact that they’re human. I’m so grateful that this failure happened because it’s completely changed–

Appreciation of our Supporters

Winston: Hey, before we jump into the podcast, we want to thank all our donors and supporters who make the Today Count Show possible. It’s through your generosity that we’re able to shape leaders through this content and this podcast. Be sure to like, subscribe, and follow wherever you find yourself coming across this content. All right, let’s get to the podcast.

Introduction

Jim: Hey, everybody, welcome back to the Today Count Show. I wrote a little hook that I was supposed to memorize, and sometimes I do, sometimes I don’t. But I want to read it word for word because I think it is a bullseye for what we’re going to try to get done in this episode. Here it goes.

If you want to know what the next generation of leadership really looks like, you’ll hear it in this episode. I’ve got with me today two young leaders who aren’t waiting in line. They’re not waiting their turn. They are already making an impact. They’re leading.

Guests Backgrounds

I’m going to introduce you guys, if that’s all right. Say hello, Chris  Juarez. Welcome, Chris, to the show.

Chris: It’s good to be here.

Mason: Yeah, I’m glad you’re here. What do you think about the studio?

Chris: I love it. It looks good. It’s not what I was expecting.

Jim: Oh, yeah?

Chris: My expectations. I’m not sure what I expected.

Mason: Well, good. I’m glad you’re here. And Mason, glad to have you here, too.

Mason: Yes, sir. Appreciate the opportunity. Yeah, the studio is awesome. You can do a podcast and watch some football. Not at the same time.

Jim: Not at the same time.

Mason: Not at the same time, that’s terrifying.

Jim: We’ve got to focus on our conversation.

So, the way that I want the audience to get to know you a little bit is you’re both twenty-somethings, right? You’re mid to late, not late twenties yet, but one more year, Chris, and you’ll be there. Actually, you are pretty much– It’s coming up. You told me that yesterday. You guys are tipping mid to late twenties. You’re both college graduates, and Chris, I don’t know if I should call you doctor, pastor, or what, but you’ve earned your doctorate.

Chris: I have, yes. Physical therapy.

Jim: Yeah, awesome. And you both recently have been named commissioned pastors at your church, which is North Rock Church. I was just doing a little bit of number crunching myself, and I have a certain way of measuring the size of churches. I already forgot that number. Do you remember that number? Oh, here it is.

Leading Staff, Volunteers, and a Megachurch

I think our church would definitely be called a megachurch. The numbers of the church, and I’m talking about the church church, a lot of the leaders in our church probably don’t even realize this, but we’re a church of getting close to 6,000 people.

Mason: Yeah.

Jim: And that doesn’t include many who might say that North Rock is their church.

Mason: Right.

Jim: And so you guys lead staff members, but you also lead volunteers. In a nonprofit organization, that is kind of the nuance. I think that’s why a lot of people turn to nonprofits to learn about leadership, because everybody’s a volunteer, even if you get a paycheck, because you’re volunteering your life and your time to it. You’re really a volunteer when you don’t get paid and you’re using your time, your energy, your talent, and all those things.

To be more specific, Mason, you are the worship pastor.

Mason: Yes, sir.

Jim: And Chris, you are the campus pastor at what we call our broadcast location. We have two other satellite locations. On top of that, we have a pretty strong internet presence.

Chris: Yes, we do.

The Three Dimensions of Leadership

Jim: Right. So I want to start with this question. At Lead Today, in our leadership ministry, we believe that leadership is an inside-out proposition, and we teach it through three dimensions. I’m already cupping my hands because I want to make an illustration. It starts with our person, then it goes into our relationships, or what we call our people, and then finally into our public place of leadership, which we call place.

I’d like to take that route at first. When it comes to your person, Mason, let me start with you. In this role of leadership, what’s been the most surprising thing about leadership at this point in your life? I think it’s a fair question.

Leadership is an Inside-Out Proposition

Mason: I would just say there are curveballs after curveballs after curveball, and it just keeps coming. It’s always something in leadership, and being able to roll with the punches, being able to roll with it and move forward through things. We consider it joy when there are trials of many kinds, so I know there’s always going to be something new. You have to wake up every day thinking, my goodness, what could I face today as a leader?

That was a little bit surprising. When I was younger and looking at leadership, even church leadership, I thought it would be pretty mundane, but it is not. It is the opposite of that. There’s something new every week, something new every day. You learn to love it. You learn to roll with it. And you learn to adapt and be flexible with different people, different groups, and different meetings. That’s probably been the most surprising thing for me, that there’s a turn at every corner. There’s always something new.

Jim: Yeah. What’s clear to me is both of you have obvious talents. I’m not going to let you off the hook yet, Mason. You are a vocalist, a darn good one, and you’re a musician as well.

Mason: Yes, sir.

Jim: There are aspects to leadership in that realm. You’ve got to practice, know your lyrics, think about technical things, but that’s really the least part of your role. As a worship pastor, you are put on a pedestal and you are judged through different lenses. Do you feel that? Do you feel that pressure?

Healthy Pressure and Integrity

Mason: Yeah, absolutely. I feel that in a good way. It’s not unhealthy pressure; it’s healthy pressure. Being a pastor’s kid, even growing up, even when I wasn’t in a leadership role, I felt the eyes being on me. Not to say that I was perfect. There were times I was in environments where people noticed. I’m not perfect, but I feel that pressure in a healthy way.

When that turns into stress, that’s when it becomes unhealthy. There’s something healthy about feeling a little bit of pressure being on that pedistal. Like you said Pastor Jim, what I do on stage is probably ten percent of my role at the church. I try to be very intentional about being the same leader on stage as I am off stage. The same leader that I am off stage in the lobby as the person that I am out at dinner on a Friday night, and at home. Being aware of that.

I don’t want to take a mask off when I leave the stage or take a mask off when I leave the church. Whatever leadership role we’re in, we need to be the same leader at home and at work.

Integrity Under Pressure

Jim: So you’re talking about integrity. Chris, you can answer that too if you want, but let me be more pointed with you in this one. When I was younger, it’s not that I don’t struggle with it today, I still do, but I know for sure when I was a younger leader, I struggled with doing the hard things. I knew what I liked doing, I knew what I was good at, and I stayed in that realm. In leadership talk today, they even talk about your strengths, but I’ve found that leadership is blind to my strengths. Leadership is about doing what needs to be done.

How are you wrestling with– Here you are a younger leader, you’re not a kid. You are a grown man. You’re ready to lead. You’re probably physically at your prime. If you didn’t know that, I’m telling you now.

Mason: Oh, good. Appreciate that.

Jim: You’re pretty close to heading downhill from here. Anway, Winston’s over there nodding yes. It wasn’t that many years ago we were on the basketball court or I was playing with both of you guys. I was stupid for doing that.

Have you thought about that cognitively, consciously, about what tends to be particularly hard for you?

The Struggle for Discipline

Chris: In leadership, I think for me it’s staying disciplined. We all know what we should be doing, but we don’t always do what we should be doing. For me, it’s hard to do the thing I dread the most and to do it first. Going to the gym, always contionously being the person I’m supposed to be, to always tell the truth, to not bending anything. It is hard to be disciplined. But I’ve wrapped myself in rhythms of being disciplined.

Jim: You bring up a good subject. Let me throw this out there. Let’s talk about truth. Are you at a place in leadership where you consciously know when you’re under  tremendous amout of pressure when it comes to turth? Telling the truth to yourself and telling the turth to others about a situation or how you’re feeling? How are you handling– Does that make sense, that question?

Mason: A little bit.

Jim: You were saying, the pressure is good. Describe to me what pressure looks like maybe in what you’re doing as leaders. Then what are you temptations in that pressure? Does that make a little bit better sense?

Temptations Under Pressure

Chris: For me, I feel pressure, because in the seat that I sit in, there are people below me. As a leader, I’m not super people-focused intentionally, and it’s been a learning curve. When there is pressure to do the task that needs to be done but to also have to consider the people under me. I’ve felt a lot of pressure presonally in that is how do I consider what’s best for the organization always but then also consider the people under me. The pressures of what decisions I have to make, who does it affer, and those things.

Jim: In other words, your temptation is to focus on the end and not the means.

Chris: Yeah.

Jim: What your decision is. What about you, Mason?

Mason: One of the main pressures I feel just being in the worship pastor role, it is one of my jobs, it is in my job description to help cultivate and create an excellent worship envirionment, spirit-filled worship environment every weekend. One of the pressures that I feel is to keep that excellence level up. So often, a temptation of mine is to, I hate to say it, but maybe we’re not reaching that level of exellence in a certain position, because of the temptation of “I don’t want to hurt this person’s feelings,” or “I don’t want to have this tough conversation.” That’s something that I struggle with a lot.

Wrestling With People-Pleasing

I’ve dealt with people-pleasing syndrome. Something that I’m trying to work through and get over. I want everybody to love me. People I think mostly dealt with that at some point.

Jim: Why would anybody be mad at me?

Mason: Right, exactly. But we can’t let one person’s feelings towards us affect the whole group, affect the whole team, affect the whole campus, affect the worship environment. That’s a temptation that I’ve definitely dealth with.

Speaking Truth With Love

Just in those moments, I’ve learned to speak truth. We speark truth with love. If you’re going into a hard conversation, I think a lot of times what speaking truth looks like is having the hard conversation which is something that a lot of leaders struggle with — having that hard conversation, getting in those environments.

And when you’re stepping into those conversations, one, you got, if it’s, let’s say, a one-on-one, and let’s say there’s probably a third party in the room as well, we’re caring for your heart first off. Like I want you to know that I care about you. This is why I’m having this conversation first off, and then second off, just being truthful. I think that goes a long ways in today’s world.

Rationalization and Avoidance in Leadership

Jim: That’s good because I think what I heard from both of you, Chris, is temptation maybe you’re saying is to be task-oriented. And Mason, yours might be more avoidance-oriented. I resonate with both of those, definitely.

Another thing that I would throw to my rationalizations to have me avoid is I would critique myself in this way. It’s a strange psychological thing. I will critique myself in such a way that it takes me off the hook from doing what I need to do. Here’s how I’ll do it. I’ll go, “Jim, not everything is a big deal. You don’t have to hold everybody accountable to every single thing. Give some grace.” Now, doesn’t that sound like a good sermon?

Mason: Grace.

Jim: But then you preach it to yourself so that you take yourself off the hook from having to do that.

Leadership Energy and Sustainability

Well, let’s not leave this person thing yet. Let’s talk about it. How much do you guys—because when I was 25, 26, 27, 28, I think you’re going to understand what I’m going to say here. It’s a little bit tongue-in-cheek. What I’m going to say is I could get away with not taking care of myself as much just because I was young and healthy and had lots of energy. Whereas today, if I skip one little thing, it can come back to get me.

At 25 versus 65, that’s 40 years of difference. I really have to work super hard on taking care of myself. But I also have to admit that some of the things that I skipped when I was younger have come back to visit me. Now, just to be honest with you, you guys can probably still pull an all-nighter. I can’t. There’s no way. Chris is not gonna be able to make it.

Chris: I won’t make it. Yeah. I’d be a liability if–

Mason: You’d be liability on the podcast right now.

Chris: Yeah, for sure.

The Inside-Out Proposition

Jim: So here’s what I’m trying to say. Do you buy into this idea that leadership is an inside-out proposition, that leadership starts by leading yourself, and if you can’t lead yourself well, how can you lead others well? Do you buy into that? And if you do, what are the things that you are learning to practice and do to take care of yourself so that you can bring a healthy self into the next ring, which is your people? That’s a tough question.

You Can’t Lead Where You Haven’t Been

Chris: Yeah. I’m fully bought into it. You can’t take others where you haven’t yourself been. I constantly think about the fact that who I am today is what I’m leading out of, and it’s where I’m going to be able to take people. It’s a deep conviction of mine. If I’m not willing to do the hard thing, then how can I expect somebody else to do the hard thing? If I’m not willing to have the tough conversation, how can I expect someone to have the tough conversation? And if I’m not willing to be uncomfortable, to do something that’s maybe hard for me or new for me, something that’s stretching me, how can I expect someone else?

When we get to the people, how can I expect someone else to do that? I’m a firm believer that I have to lead myself way before I can lead anyone else for my leadership to be effective, but then to also be just a good leader.

The Mind’s Role in Leadership

Jim: Yeah. You said something on the stage yesterday morning, and I’m going to ask you to repeat it the best that you can. I also said it to you at lunch that I wrote it down, and I’m going to find a way to include it in the book I’m working on right now. You said something about the physical fact that God gave us this organ called the brain. I’m going to probably butcher it, so I’m going to let you fix it. It doesn’t have the ability to focus on the negative and the positive at the same time. Fix that. How did you say that?

Focusing on Gratitude to Minimize Negative Emotions

Chris: Yeah. The brain, there’s a fear center in the brain, and the brain cannot process both negative and positive emotions at the same time. When I was talking about shifting from an attitude of anxiety or feelings of anxiety, stress, heaviness, to an attitude of gratitude, when we focus on the positive, when we focus on the gratitude, in this case, the brain, what it naturally does, it decreases and minimizes the negative feelings that we are feeling. The gratitude and the positive things that you are feeling start to come to the surface, and everything else gets pushed.

Jim: I just thought that was interesting. I didn’t know that. I’m going to do my own research so I don’t steal your stuff. Exactly. Mason, how would you answer that question? Do you buy into the inside-out proposition?

Spiritual and Physical Self-Care

Mason: Absolutely. Taking care of what’s inside. We know that what’s in our hearts, whatever’s on the inside, it’s going to come out at some point. Yeah, at some point. COVID brought a lot of stuff out of people, probably some gross stuff that they didn’t want to. There’s always something that is going to bring out what’s truly on the inside, in the heart.

So it starts there. For me, in the worship and pastoral role at the church, it starts spiritually. I have to be disciplined every day to spend time in the Word of God, to spend time in prayer. I have to do that. Physically, whether it’s going for a walk, going to the gym, pickleball, trying to do something every day. Funny enough, physical workouts help me mentally as well. I’m not a doctor, but there is some science behind that, the mental positivity and health that comes from physically working out.

Then relationally, being intentional about my relationships. There are a lot of people at the church, so being intentional with who I spend my time with, who I go get coffee with, who I’m pouring into. Those areas I try to be disciplined about because that’s all the stuff that’s within me.

Energy In and Energy Out

Jim: Yeah. If you can use your imagination and you see a circle in your mind, and then you see arrows starting from inside that circle and pointing outside of that circle as a leader, that’s what’s happening to you every day. There is energy leaving you. Your answers reveal that you also have to have arrows coming into you to fill you so that you’ve got something to give. Right?

No matter who we work with at Lead Today, and we work with a lot of really great, wonderful leaders around the country, none of us can stop listening to this. It’s a constant reminder of how we should be taking care of ourselves. There are all kinds of analogies and pictures, but it really is true.

Growth Behind the Platform

Going back to one more thing, I was thinking about Mason when you started getting up on stage some years ago. I’ve told you this on different occasions, seeing you grow. I’ve also seen you grow not just as a– I know your heart is not in performance, but in that role you’ve got to be good at what you do.

Mason: Yes, sir.

Jim: But you can also see that you’ve been growing something behind that. The analogy I give is when I was being taught how to teach, one instructor, one professor told me that for every minute that I teach, we need to spend an hour in preparation. If you’re going to give a 30-minute talk, that would mean spending 30 hours that week on that 30-minute time. Maybe that decreases a little bit over time, but here’s another shortcut I want to explain of this inner circle, this taking care of ourselves.

Just because you might become more knowledgeable, in this case the Bible and teaching the Bible, doesn’t give you license to take a shortcut. I’m not saying that is a divine equation, an hour for every minute.

Never Skipping the Main Thing

But what I am saying is I remember one elder pulling me aside and telling me that if I had to set administrative things aside for the week, if I had to put things aside, just make sure I don’t put aside the preparation.

The folks that are coming to congregate, they have been fighting it out all week long in their marriages, raising their kids, in their jobs, in their neighborhoods, with their health, with their finances, with all of those things that are so real for us. It was just so important. So it goes again to support the idea that whatever our main things are, we’ve got to make sure that we continue to do that. Sounds like you guys are on the right track.

Leading People: Relationships, Generations, and Trust

So let’s go a little bit further into this messier thing. We talked a little bit about taking care of our person, but let’s talk about people, our relationships. Help me understand, because one thing I have learned, Winston and I talk about this all the time. For those who want to know who Winston is, he’s here in the studio with us, and you’re familiar with him because he’s on the podcast a lot.

We talk a lot about these things philosophically, especially things of race, gender, and generational things. Obviously, there’s a chasm that separates your generation from mine. Mine is technically called the baby boomer generation. Do you know what yours is?

Mason: X? No.

Chris: Z.

Jim: Z?

Chris: Z, but–

Jim: We’re being coached by Winston. You’re Generation Z?

Chris: Yes.

Jim: That’s a bunch of alphabet letters away from me. And you’re a millennial. In this room–

Chris: Gen Z elder.

Jim: Oh, you’re an elder. He’s an elder statesman.

Chris: I’m a Gen Z elder.

Jim: That makes you feel better. That’s good. I’m a young boomer. Most boomers are in their 70s. I’m a young boomer. Regardless, I’m a student. I try to be a student.

What the Next Generation Looks for in Leadership

Tell me what you think is unique about what your generation looks to from leadership, how they view leadership, how do you view it. I would love to hear that. Mason, why don’t you start?

Mason: Absolutely. We were talking about how to answer this earlier. We both kind of have a similar answer. I’m sure we’ll bounce things off each other here, but I think in today’s world our generation is looking for more authenticity than anything, right?

Jim: Regardless of where they’re at—at work, at church, in a relationship.

Chris: It’s almost like titles don’t even matter to anyone in my generation, at least.

Mason: Just looking to somebody who is the same in a meeting, the same at work, the same at home. Just an authentic person.

When I think of authenticity, I think of somebody who does what they say they’re going to do. So many times as leaders, we’ve all probably been in an environment where we’ve said, “Okay, this is our next step. We’re going to do this.” We look back a year later and say, “What happened to that goal? What happened to that initiative?” A leader who does what they say they’re going to do, who follows through.

One last note, and again, we’ll bounce some stuff off each other. When I think of authenticity, I think of somebody who pushes through anything. Just push through it. There are going to be challenges. There are going to be days when somebody might turn their back on you, maybe even days when somebody might quit. We’ve seen that. But pushing through those hard times, being authentic through it, and doing what you say you’re going to do.

Boldness and Courage in Modern Leadership

Chris: On top of that, authenticity. I think leadership in our generation looks more bold, more courageous. I feel that people in my generation are more willing to follow a person who shows authenticity, boldness, courage, willingness to make a mistake, willingness to do something not knowing how it’s going to turn out, not being risk-averse. Just looking up to people who are doing the thing and doing the hard thing.

Jim: Would you say your generation is ready and willing to join something, or are they more stand-back, waiting?

Mason: In today’s world, especially over the past few years, more young adults in our generation are looking to join something, looking to be a part of something.

I watched something the other day, and the whole hippie movement was about people looking for something to be a part of. I think we’re almost coming back to that. In these past few years, young adults are looking for something to join, something to be a part of.

Lessons From a Shared History

Jim: In 1971, there was a Coke commercial. What year were you guys born?

Chris: ’98.

Mason: 2000.

Jim: This is fun.

Mason: Coke’s still around, right?

Jim: Yeah, it is. In 1971, Coke gathered maybe 70 or 80 young adults, probably around your age and younger, maybe down to 17 or 18. They were standing on a hillside in Italy, each one of them is holding a Coke bottle.

I can’t sing very well, so I won’t try, but the lyric goes something like this, “I’d like to buy the world a Coke.” It talked about utopia-type of ideas, coming together. When I looked at how they were addressed, I remembered that because I was 11 at the time. There was a movement Coke was trying to align itself with, so you’d buy more Coke. But the whole idea was to join something.

This is just my own anecdotal perspective, but I think it was about the mid-80s when all of that fell apart. I don’t think we recovered. Maybe we’re just now recovering, where people want to be involved in organizations and connect with organizations. I just thought that was interesting.

Earning Trust in Leadership

I want to read this text I received late last night. It’s a question from another young leader: “When it comes to gaining an individual or a group’s respect, is that something someone does in a practical way, or is it solely a presence that you have?” I think what he’s asking is whether someone has the it factor that is attractive or whether it’s something someone does.

Since this came from someone in your neck of the woods agewise, what is behind that question do you think, and how would you answer that?

Are Leaders Born or Developed?

Mason: I think so often at the church we want more leaders. We’re a church looking to grow, an organization looking to grow to reach more people for the kingdom. We’re always looking to develop leaders. I’m sure many watching are in that same boat where you’re looking for growth, you’re looking to develop leaders. Gosh, we ask this question, at least in my mind: are leaders naturally born? Is it a God-given thing, or can we build and develop leaders?

I think it’s a little bit of both. There’s a lot of gray area, not black and white. Whoever is asking that question may be going back and forth between like is this a given thing where somebody is born with this, a natural born leader thing or is it something that they’ve developed over time. Personally, I think it can be a little bit of both.

Jim: What do you think, Chris?

Trust as the Foundation of Leadership

Chris: I agree. I think people in my generation are looking for truth and we talked about it a little while ago. I think they’re looking for someone they can trust. Maybe the heart question that this person was coming from is that, we don’t trust people easily. People in my generation, we have to earn someone’s trust. No one is no longer willing to follow someone out of power, rank, or whatever title it is. Trust is hard to earn.

Trust is very hard to earn, and I think it’s one thing that you cannot lead someone effectively until they completely trust you. It takes a while to earn trust, and it takes relationship building. It takes intentionality, it takes loving the person, caring for the person. But until you can do that, until you can have someone trust you, I don’t think you’ll really be able to lead them effectively at all.

Leading Beyond Your Years

Jim: This statement might offend some that are listening, and I don’t mean it in any kind of offense. But the reason why I asked the two of you to join me on this podcast today is because you both remind me a little bit of myself when I was in my 20s. My perspective, looking back at it, I was over my head in things. I was an executive at Bank of America. I was making loans the size that I thought I would never see in my life.

But one thing that I think we all share is what I’m about to say. I cannot think of anyone. There might have been someone, but I cannot think of them looking back. I’m just going to pick out the age 24 because that’s when I received my VP title. I cannot think of one person who was younger than me. I look back at that, and I think about it. Was I even conscious of that, or did I have my blinders on? Or did someone want to make sure? I’m going to tell you a story after you guys don’t forget. I have to tell you the story about when I was brought to a customer service situation.

Leading People Older Than You

But you guys lead people that are older than you, I assume.

Mason: Yes, sir.

Jim: So what does that look like? How’s that going?

Mason: It’s going good.

Jim: Do you think because of their grace towards you?

Mason: I think a little bit of grace for sure.

Chris: A lot bit of grace.

Mason: I’m sure there’s been some moments of, “What am I doing, this 25-year-old kid?” But bouncing off of what Chris said, I think building that trust as a young leader when you are leading people older than you, they need to know that they can trust you as a leader. They need to know that he or she may be young, but I can trust them, just like they could trust somebody older than them in a sense.

Collaboration vs. Decisiveness

Jim: I think most leaders should collaborate about most things, but if that’s your idealism, it can also get in the way of you being decisive and making a call and moving ahead. So how do you balance that? I think when you’re dealing with leading people who are older than you.

Chris: Going back to when you said that you didn’t know if you really thought about leading people older than you, I think about myself, and I also don’t think I’ve ever really sat down and thought, “Hey, I’m leading people older than myself.” I don’t know why, but when I read this question, I was like, “Wow, I am leading people far beyond where I am and people who are leading in companies, high-level leadership.” But it goes back to the trust.

Seeking Counsel and Wisdom

Then you talk about collaboration. One of the things that I’ve always been advised on is to always seek counsel and wisdom. It’s one thing that I do, even in the heat of the moment. In the seat that I sit in overseeing a campus, if there’s a decision that needs to be made in the moment, I always bring someone into it because I know that the decision is going to be better if I can bounce an idea off of someone. It doesn’t take away from me being decisive. I can make a decision, but I think it’s always better to have another opinion or to seek counsel, to seek wisdom.

At the end of the day, if you’re working for an organization, we all want the best for the organization. Sometimes in the heat of the moment, we can’t really make the best decision, and we need to invite someone in. I collaborate a lot personally, especially on any given weekend and any decision that I’m making. It has been something I’ve had to work on because being a young leader and feeling like I have to prove myself.

In my role, it was always me thinking internally, “No, I have to make the decision. They’re counting on me. They hired me to make the decision.” Once I started leading with the mindset of, “No, we’re all on the same team. We’re all here to help each other,” and inviting people, I’ve seen my leadership grow. I’ve seen my leadership become much more effective when I’ve collaborated with others.

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What Winning Teams Have in Common

Jim: I’ve been on many winning teams and many losing teams. One of the things I’ve noticed about the winning teams is that regardless of the age of the players on the team, (I’m just using players as a term to describe every potential blocks on the organization chart) when they realize that they’re all there to serve one mission. The org chart and the bylaws and all of those things, we really only look to those when there’s trouble.

Mutual Submission as a Leadership Strength

What I saw in winning teams is they would actually submit to one another. People that were two levels down on the org chart would sometimes, in certain situations and topics, lead the CEO or the leader, and that leader would say, “You lead.”

I know that there have been times where you both have led me, whether you knew you were or not. I took your cue because you honor the role. But the more you collaborate as a leader, when it is time to be decisive, the more you will see people get behind you and help you. But if you’re always making the decisions without the collaboration, then you build a resistance.

Leading When You Feel Too Young

I have to tell you this story. This is when I was still doing mostly management and wasn’t doing business banking. One of my team members came up to me and said, “There’s a customer who’s very upset, and they asked to see the bank manager.” I’d already been having some problems with my age because in my early 20s, I probably looked like I was 16 or 17. I have a ruddy complexion.

The Mustache Lesson

I remember my boss came to visit me one time, and he hadn’t seen me for a while. I think I kind of startled him in how youthful I looked. He forgot. He said to me, “Jimmy, have you ever thought about growing a mustache?” I said, “I’ll give it a try.” So he said, “Yeah, why don’t you do that? It might help.” This is back in the day where mustaches were in. I think they’re making a comeback. In fact, I don’t think I’ve seen a 40-something in a while who doesn’t have a beard. My wife pointed that out to me. I said, “Yeah, what is that with the 40-somethings? They’re all having beards.”

Anyway, I tried growing this mustache. I have to break up the story into two parts because I have to tell you what happened to that mustache later. I’ve got this mustache, and she comes and gets me. I go and see this customer, and she introduces me as the bank manager. I introduce myself, and this lady says, “No, really, I want to talk to the bank manager.” That’s when I became conscious of how young I was. I wasn’t just leading a team that was older than me. All my customers were older than me.

My boss came back a couple of weeks later to pay a visit. He saw my mustache and said, “Jimmy, you need to shave that off. It was all peach fuzz. It was too obvious.”

Knowing When to Collaborate and When to Decide

I think that’s a good lesson that we can bring out here. Most of the time, your mode of operation, regardless of your age and your status, should be collaboration. There are times that time doesn’t allow and the situation doesn’t allow. There’s a stalemate, and hopefully, it doesn’t really get to a stalemate. You just have to make a decision.

Giving People a Seat at the Table

Mason: If I can add one thing to that collaboration idea, I think people often just want to feel like they have a seat at the table. Even if you’re not using every single idea they bring, there’s so much power in asking, “Hey, let’s try this. Try it. How did you feel about that?”

Jim: That’s good.

Mason: I try to do that on stage, off the stage. “Let’s try this new system” or “Let’s try this drum fill.” Boom, we tried it in the next rehearsal. “Okay, how did you feel about that?” Even that little sentence takes five seconds to ask that for a 30-second response, they’re feeling, “Hey, I’m getting to collaborate on something.”

Chris: They feel a part of it.

Mason: They feel a part of it. They feel this leader cares what I think, cares what I feel. That’s all what I wanted to add.

Separating a Person’s Value from Their Performance

Jim: You’re touching on an even deeper topic where we really have to be careful to separate the value of a person from what it is that they do. If how the drummer drums is directly related to his value as a person, you’re going to have a train wreck later. When we’re trying to deal with performance, we can talk about how the performance needs to improve, not “you need to improve.” Whenever you throw the word “you,” you have married their task and their action to who they are as a person. You separate that.

When you hear, “Johnny, that is not acceptable,” though that’s hard to hear, that is a separation of the person versus the deal. Versus, “Johnny, you’re such a bad boy because you did this or that.” Then you marry those things together. I think the skill then would be collaboration.

Another way we say it is good leadership, good coaching is more inductive than it is deductive, meaning that you are asking questions. You are collaborating. Self-discovery is always more powerful than someone giving you the answer. Sometimes you have to give them the answer, but we want that to be the– I think we agreed on that, right?

Mason: Yes, sir.

The Power of Vulnerability and Learning from Mistakes

Jim: That’s awesome. All right. Here comes the vulnerable piece. You guys said that you respect authenticity, and authenticity and vulnerability are cousins. So here it comes. You got to cough up. What is a mistake that you have made in your early leadership that has taught you the most about people? Who wants to go first?

Leadership Failure: Dismissing the Human Element

Chris: I’ll take this one. I made a pretty big mistake early in my leadership in the current role that I’m in. What happened was a leader was put into a leadership role, and I made the decision to remove them for several different reasons without considering the person, without considering their side, without asking questions, without asking the things that I should have been asking, and just completely dismissing the fact that they’re human and that they were a person. I know I caused a lot of damage to the people involved, and in that, it’s taught me so much about being people-focused.

Earlier I said that I’m more task-oriented. I’m wired in a way that’s get the task done. I’m so grateful that this failure happened because it’s completely changed my perspective on how I lead. Literally completely. I lead people under me who are Enneagram ones, who are perfectionists, who are task-oriented. What’s funny is we sit at a table and we’re in a meeting, and I, someone who used to be the task-oriented person, the one who wasn’t considering the person all the time, am now the one considering the person in a seat of people who aren’t considering the person.

Growth Through Timing and Reflection

God is so good in the way that we worked it out, the timing that he worked it out. It’s changed my leadership completely. I walk into the church with a different mindset. I walk into a meeting with a different mindset. It’s funny. I don’t have an office, but my cube is constantly being knocked on. People are constantly asking questions: “Hey, Chris, what do you think about this situation?” or “Hey, what do you think about this text?” or “What do you think about this email?” And it’s always like, “Okay, have you considered the person? Have you considered how this can make them feel? Have you considered how much this is going to affect not only them, but their friend group? Or have you considered X, Y, and Z?”

It’s interesting. In the moment when I am “coaching” them in whatever question they’re asking me, I’m just like, “Wow, here I am considering the person now way more than I would have ever considered had I not had that leadership failure.”

Jim: That’s good.

Communication Breakdown: The Power of Information

Mason: I think for me, mine has to do more with a communication side of things, which thankfully I’ve been able to get way better at. There was a moment a few years ago where a decision was made on our team, and maybe we’ve all heard stories of this, maybe you’ve experienced this, a leader on my team found out from a third person rather than hearing it from me where it should have been coming from.

Jim:  Yeah, that’s hurtful.

Mason: What it was was trusting some people in the room that I probably shouldn’t have been trusting at the time. They went and told people, and we know how that works. I definitely learned that when we are making high-level decisions, decisions that will impact other leaders, decisions that will impact the whole team, volunteers, team members, and leaders, they need to hear it from you. They need to hear it from you. High-level decisions.

Obviously, there are decisions that we are able to delegate, and we push decision-making down to leaders below us. But a high-level decision was made this one time, and a leader on my team heard it from somebody else when it should have come from me. That led to, “Hey, I heard we were doing this,” and it’s just a gross situation. It would have been so much cleaner if I had just done the communication from the very top. I think I actually did have a plan to communicate it to the people who needed to know; it just got out.

The How and When of Decision Making

Jim: Both of those stories make a lot of sense. If it helps you guys feel better, all you did was remind me of all of my train wrecks down the road. In Chris’s story, I remember a mentor telling me that we think leadership is knowing the right answer, and it’s about the farthest thing from that. His name was Lloyd Lewan, this particular mentor, and he was an incredible fellow. He told me that it’s rarely the decision that a leader makes that gets us in trouble; it’s the how and when we carry it out.

I have never forgotten that intellectually. I may have forgotten it emotionally in the moment and then tripped over the same thing again. With Mason’s story, I remember, it’s funny, we don’t mean to harm anyone. We’re people, too. We’re not often aware of the power of information and the power of decisions that are in our hands.

Capacity and the Invisible Weight of Leadership

I remember telling a younger protégé something that I was struggling with. I don’t even remember what it was, and it wasn’t that heavy. It might have been weariness or something like that. I did not realize how much he had me on a pedestal, and it wrecked him for 60 or 90 days. Who leaders can talk to about their stuff is a reality. We have to be careful in that. We call that capacity. Capacity is an invisible thing, but it’s very real.

You guys have probably heard me say this before, but there was a certain level of stress at a certain age that I would get so stressed that my chest would get so tight that at night I would start massaging my chest. I didn’t even know what was making me stressed out, but I knew I was stressed out. Now, not that I don’t get stressed out. I’m sure I do, but if I do, I’m not aware of it.

Capacity is an interesting thing. As we grow as leaders, we’re able to take on more weight. It might be because we learn the difference between urgency and what’s not urgent, what’s important, and what’s not important. Those are really good examples that you both gave to share.

Talk to me a little bit about technology. When I first started leading, we had no texting. We had no email.

Mason: Can you imagine?

Chris: No, I actually can’t.

Jim: We had real letters that came in the mail. Have you guys seen a post office service person? That was that.

Technology and Communication in Leadership

How is this world of technology, and maybe it’s hard for you to contrast, but tell me how you use technology. What are the expectations around it? How do you all communicate? Yeah, maybe that’s what they say.

Mason: With technology.

Jim: Okay, explain that. What does that look like?

The Exclusivity of Technology in Communication

Mason: We can bounce back and forth on this. Within our organization, our church, probably the majority of our communication is through technology because we have so many volunteers. Something that I do every week, and I try to stay consistent with this because I think it matters, is send an email out to my whole team, the worship team, every Wednesday. We’re able to do stuff like that. Maybe you were able to do that back in the day by writing a letter out to the whole team. Probably not.

Jim: No.

Mason: Yeah, I don’t know, Chris. What are your thoughts?

Navigating Technology Ethics

Chris: Yeah, technology is the greatest thing ever. It’s helpful. We communicate almost exclusively through texting if I need to reach someone. If I listen to a podcast, this is something I do a lot. I oversee the leadership development department at North Rock Church, and I have interns under me. It’s all technology. I’m constantly sending podcasts and sermons for them to listen to. I’m constantly using technology in a way that is helping me grow as a leader.

There’s a lot of information in technology, and working through technology has been a learning curve. There are some things that should be a phone call and not a text. There are some things that should be a phone call and not an email. Navigating those situations is important because technology can bite you at the end of the day if we don’t use it well. We just have to be careful with how we’re using technology because it’s good.

The “Copy” Rule to Inject Grace

Jim: I would imagine that in your generation, the biggest decision is what technology you’re going to use and what the expectations are around each one. I’m just imagining. I remember when email first came out, and at that time, I was still leading an organization. We didn’t know how to use email. I mean, we know how to use it, it wasn’t that hard to figure out, but we didn’t know how to use it yet in a productive way.

One of the things I noticed and maybe your generation doesn’t deal with this as much, but because we were sloppy and human, we didn’t really understand the ethics around email. I began noticing that, just pretend in here, Mason send sme an email. The email is complaining about you, Chris. Then it would move to complaining about this person or that person or so and so said. It became gossip in print. I didn’t know what to do about it, so I just remember thinking, “Something didn’t feel right about this. This is not how we would handle it audibly in this kind of situation.”

Setting Clear Guidelines

And I remember sending out an email to everyone on our team. I had to take a risk because I didn’t know either. I said, “Here’s the deal. If you send out an email and you mention anybody’s name in the email, even if it’s factual, like ‘John is sick today,’” it had to go to that extreme because I couldn’t figure out the gray. Sometimes, you have to start with black and white in order to– At least that’s my view. I said,  “If you put someone’s name on the email, fine, but you have to copy them on the email.”

The funny thing is that when we got together as a group, what it taught me is that I didn’t even need to send the email. Sometimes you don’t even have to send the thing. If you did send it and you copied that person, it’s funny how the wording was completely different.

Mason: There was so much more grace involved.

Choosing the Right Medium for the Message

Jim: It seems to me that change in business and leadership today is much more rapid than it was when I was leading. Ever since the industrial revolution, change has been going pretty fast, but not like it is today. It’s warp speed. Your generation continues to come up with apps and all kinds of stuff, and I’m going, “I thought we are using this.” There are so many apps on my phone that I know need to be deleted, but I don’t have the courage to delete them because maybe we’re still using those apps. That’s funny.

Mason: I would say this, Pastor Jim, Jim, I’m sure you all agree with this, nothing beats a face-to-face conversation. Ever. Like you were saying, some things need to be a phone call that shouldn’t be an email. Some things can just be a text and don’t need to be a call. Nothing beats a face-to-face conversation. Not for everything, obviously, but I’ve been trying to remind myself of that.

Generational Shifts in Communication

Chris: I also think that our generation gravitates away from face-to-face. We would rather text or send something not face-to-face. Whether it’s because we’re scared to have face-to-face conversations or we just don’t know, I’ve seen myself coaching on these things: how to respond to emails, how to respond to texts, how to have a conversation in person, and when to have those. It’s interesting the way our generation communicates.

Jim: Stepping outside of it now a little bit, as a grandfather, it concerns me a little bit. Maybe your families are different, but even my family has become very text-reliant. It’s kind of fun to get texts from my grandkids. It’s cute, but then I start thinking this is how it’s going to be as they get older. I don’t want that. When I think about my kids, they all have their own style.

I wonder if our culture is defining how we use technology versus household leadership or organizational leadership, whatever the verticals are. It makes my mind wonder. It’s not for this episode or this podcast, but it does make me wonder.

Leadership Superpowers of the Next Generation

Here’s a fun question. If your generation has a leadership superpower, what would it be?

Creativity as a Generational Strength

Chris: I think creativity is something that my generation is bringing to the world. You just mentioned the apps. Gen Z is creating a lot of what is happening today. It’s so coold that the Gen Z is so innovative and creative. They are constantly seeking what we don’t have that we can make, or what isn’t working, and how we can make it better. I think it’s a superpower to have such a creative generation.

Jim: Cool.

Boldness Fueled by Technology

Mason: I don’t know if it’s a superpower, but just boldness. I know we talked a little bit about this earlier. We see leaders that we may believe are in the wrong, and maybe they are or maybe they aren’t, but they’re bold about it. I think technology helps them feel bold because you can be bold about anything online and find somebody to follow you, whether it’s for good or for bad. I trully think that a lot of leaders in our generation are bold in what they believe. We’re not afraid of what we believe.

Courage to Shake Things Up

Chris: We’re not afraid to shake things up, to disturb the peace in a good way. I think it’s the boldness that we carry. Courage.

Mason: That’s good. I like shaking things up because change is good. Change is healthy. Not that we’re trying to change everything, but you know.

Conversations in a Divided Culture

Jim: Do you think your generation is going to do a better job at conversing? The divide is wide in our country, and we saw that pretty clearly, with all kinds of examples that we could give, and that’s troubling, too.

Soundbite Grenades and Social Media

I just got done writing a little bit yesterday and today about the soundbite grenades that we seem to throw at one another, coming off of what you guys were talking about with social media as an example.

But that’s not a conversation. It’s not a seeking to learn. It’s not, “I would really like to understand what went into your decision to believe this.” Instead of saying, “Here’s my opportunity to win an argument,” but to really seek.

Where I’m at, I find myself in front of audiences that are not gathering for the sake of their shared belief, but mostly for a practical brand that they’re working for. Yet I come to help shape their culture and help shape their leadership. From my worldview, I am unable to do that without expressing my worldview, but in a very rational, logical way where I also invite other viewpoints. It’s amazing what I get to learn.

Seeking to Understand Instead of Winning

From what you can tell, is your generation in that realm more of the same that our whole culture is experiencing? I’ll give you an example. I was meeting with a young man yesterday. You already knew who it was because you guys ran into him. He started talking to me loosely about his political views, and he caught himself mid-sentence and said, “Oh, I’m sorry.” I said, “What are you sorry about? Tell me what you believe and why.” Do you see any difference in your generation, or are you guys talking on different sides? What’s the deal?

Chris: I think I’ve seen both. I think a lot of my generation has been a generation of seeking to understand, seeking to know why we believe what we believe or why we are on the political side that we are on. There are people in our generation who are genuinely curious about learning about what it is they want to learn about. But I’ve also seen the other side of people are just so headstrong. My generation is a super headstrong generation. Whatever opinion that they personally believe in, I think sometimes they can be so focused on that that they just want to have an argument so they can win. I’ve really seen both. I don’t know if you’ve seen something different.

Fear of Sharing What We Believe

Mason: Yeah. I don’t know if I’ve necessarily seen more conversations about, “Hey, why do you believe this?” or not even asking what do you believe. What’s funny enough is the young man you were talking to apologizing for being– I still think that might be in so much of our minds. It’s like, “I’m afraid to share what I believe.”

Jim: There’s that unwritten rule: you can’t talk about religion or politics.

Mason: Right, exactly. I think it will take time to get that out of our brains.

The Hope of Long Conversations

What I am encouraged about is seeing our generation. We have young adult nights, and these young adults talk for hours. I’m at home in bed, and they’re still at the church talking, which is great, which is encouraging. I don’t really know how to fully express what I’m feeling and what I’m thinking right now, but there is some positivity coming from stuff.

And I don’t know if we’re fully there yet where people are like, “Hey, I just want to sit down and hear what you believe.” I wish we could get there, and I think we will. There are people who are like that. A lot of people in our generation are able to look past that and are able to just sit and talk for hours and have fun.

Messages to the Future Self

Jim: I guess my concern is can we have conversations that have not need to be a closed end? “This is where I’m at today. This is what I’m thinking about today. Who knows, if I run into you in three months, it would be great to carry on the conversation.”

Let me ask you this, and I want to make sure you have the opportunity to speak about anything else that’s come to your heart since we’ve been talking. If you could send a message to your future self 20 years from now, you’d be knocking on the door of 50. You’re in your 40s, you’re certainly talking about it, “Oh my gosh, I’m going to turn 50.” I’m probably dead and gone by then. If not, I’m in my mid-80s and down to a fifth wind. If you could send a message to your future self 20 years from now, what would it be?

Keep Going When It’s Hard

Mason: I would say keep going. I know we’ve talked about this a little bit already. There will be days when you wake up and want to be anywhere else but going into your job or going into your office. I’ve experienced that, even at a young age. There are days where, and I’ll share this with my parents, I was there, “I just wanted to be at home, anywhere else but here right now.” But pushing through that , there’s so much on the other end. You don’t get to where you want to go by quitting. That’s the most obvious statement ever. The greatest leaders, they didn’t quit when it got hard. Too many people, when things start to get hard, throw in the towel. “I can’t get through this. I can grow through this.”

So while it may sound a little simple, just keep going. Keep going.

Do the Thing That Scares You

Chris: For me, I would say to do the thing that scares you the most. I think for me, in the way that I’ve grown up, I’m so much of a perfectionist that I can sometimes not do something because it’s so scary or because I don’t want to look like a failure. I’m dealing with that or have dealt with that in the past. I think just consistently reminding myself to do the thing that scares me the most.

Loving People as a Leadership Choice

Alongside what I’ve spoken about earlier is just to love people. Love people to where you love them so much that they wonder, “Hey, why are you loving me this much?” Because we need to.

Jim: Good. Yeah, it’s really good. Really good. Anything dangling that you guys want to talk about?

Leading With Positivity

Mason: One thing that popped into my mind when you were talking about what our generation is looking for in leadership these days, one more thought is just positivity. I try to stay as positive as I can when I’m around my team, when I’m around my leaders. I’m not neglecting the negative. I’m not ignoring, I don’t have blinders on. We’ve all heard this maybe, but everything that’s true doesn’t need to be said, right?

Why Positivity Attracts People

There might be some bad things going on or some tough situations, but I don’t have to speak that over my team. Not even some of my leaders need to hear some of the bad things that are going on. I try to stay as positive as possible. I think people are attracted to that in our generation.

They’re dealing with so much negativity outside in the real world. Just open up your phone. Go to any news. I don’t know if anybody watches the news. It’s the most negative thing.

Jim: That’s how they sell ads, which is even more sad.

Mason: It’s crazy. This first game ended the other night, and the news came on. It was just bad news, bad news, bad news.

There’s so much negativity and bad things going on in the world that when they step into that office, when they step into your office, this meeting, for me it’s up on a stage, office, stage, whatever it is, a huddle, just being positive. I think people are attracted to that. Not neglecting the negatives, but staying positive throughout everything. Every word that you speak, life-giving.

Jim: Good. Yeah.

Chris: I think for me, when I look at our generation, I see a generation. We’re the generation of today, and I feel like if my generation could just be bold and willing enough to lead the generation, the world would be a much better place if the generations just started leading good.

Faith, Risk, and Leadership

Jim: What I want to share with you guys, as I told you the first part of why I asked you to be on the podcast, is that you guys are out ahead. You’re leading, and that reminded me. That’s why I told you I wanted you to be on. But there’s another reason too. You’re an encouragement to me, both of you. I mean that, because I see so much out there today where so many folks do the least. They can’t wait to throw mud just to throw mud. They waste their time, they waste their life.

Sunday, our church put on that movie, the Nike Michael Jordan story. The way we do it is that we splice up a movie and then we have talking points related to our faith in the movie. When Pastor Jonathan shared the four kinds of faith, I was unprepared for it emotionally. It caught me by surprise.

I was sitting at our Midtown campus, and I wrote, as I often do. I keep them on my notes. These are the four kinds of faith that we pulled out of that story to grab onto and hopefully apply.

One is optimistic faith. What I put in parentheses is that– Well, actually, move back up. Because I’m philosphical in nature, one of the things that I realized, Pastor Jonathan did not say it, but it’s kind of like when we’re talking, Chris you say something, a paragraph comes to my head. You say someting, a paragraph. That’s what happens to us. That’s why this podcast, if we wanted to, could go six hours. There are podcasts that go on. You just have to keep coming back next Tuesday, next Thursday, keep chipping away at it until you’re done with the podcast.

Faith as a Universal Gift

Somewhere in his proposition he said you need four kinds of faith. As soon as I heard that, what I thought of was this: God has gifted everybody with faith, not just your churchgoing Christian. He’s gifted everybody with faith. What an amazing God. It’s what we do with that faith that matters. So anyway, that’s the context.

Four Kinds of Faith for Leaders

Optimistic faith

So the four kinds of faith are optimistic faith. In parenthesis, I wrote, “In spite of obstacles.”

Observant faith

The second one is observant faith. And I really love what I put in parenthesis, or the sub point. And I think Pastor Jonathan even said this: ask for eyes. Ask God for eyes to see what others don’t. Man, that landed for me.

Outrageous faith

And then the third kind of faith: optimistic faith, observant faith, and then outrageous faith. Outrageous faith is that risk-taking that you guys were talking about, leading boldly, not playing it safe.

Overcoming faith

And then the fourth kind of faith was overcoming faith. To me, that was, from a Christian perspective, that’s resurrection faith. That’s a faith of rising after you made a mistake, rising from falling, rising from failing.

While I was sitting there and I had tears coming down my cheeks and snot coming out of my nose and trying to sink in the chair so no one could see Pastor Jim crying, then I was saying, “What is wrong with me? And what in the heck is happening?”

Just a contrast between what you guys might go through to what somebody who’s 65 is going through. Here’s what was going on with me. The whole idea of retirement is repulsive to me. But the world says, “Ah, just sit back.” That was one thing. And then death itself, when people say, “Saved from what?” I go, “Are you kidding me?” Have you not noticed something? Everybody kind of dies eventually. So don’t you want to know? Don’t you have hope that there’s something beyond that?

I think one of the best things that we can always do as leaders is ask questions, ask questions of one another. And the question I was asking myself is, “What in the heck is wrong with you? Why are you so emotional?” Well, it’s because God is stirring up in me, and He has been for a couple years now, a new kind of faith for a new season in my life.

Leading in a New Era

What I would want to say to you guys is you are leading in a new season. You’re leading in a new era, and I hope that you are right about your generation to push down cynicism and raise up hope and faith again, to be a little more black and white. It’s just like when you play golf. I was playing pickleball last night with some of my small group friends, and there was this one particular shot. It was a big bounce, and I just had too much time to think about the shot. I changed my mind three times on what I was going to do. So it ended up happening. It went into the net, right?

In this life, you should ask a lot of questions, but not to the point where you can’t make a decision as to what you believe and then live that, because it’ll be a better shot.

Chris Juarez, Mason Moore, I’m really glad I had you guys on the show, and thank you for what you had to share.

Chris: Thank you.

Mason: Thank you. Thanks for the opportunity. It was a blast.

Outro

Winston: Hey, thank you so much for joining us on the Today Counts Show. We’ve got so much more planned for you, so stay tuned and
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