Episode 168: Genesis 15: The Stars, the Sacrifice, and the Smoking Firepot???

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Today Counts Show Episode 168

Preview

Jim Piper: Leaders must discern the right timing for action and trust the process. In most cases, when leaders make a mistake, it’s not usually the–

Winston Harris: You can kind of get the script flipped and you think this is Abram trying to get what he wants, all the while God is actually–

Jim Piper: A leader must ground their purpose, their vision and something greater than–

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Introduction

Jim Piper: Welcome everyone to the Today Counts Show. This is a podcast about life and leadership. This particular episode belongs in what we call the Genesis Project. We are teaching our– I don’t know if teaching is the right word. We are having a conversation through the 50 chapters in the book of Genesis, the book of origins, if you will, right out of the Bible, the first book in the Bible.

I don’t know that we have a specific leaning other than you know how important this book is to answering questions about where did we come from? What is our current state? Where are we going? You know, that kind of thing. But we also tend to lean towards leadership. So we’re in Genesis 15 today and Winston Harris and myself will be on this particular episode. We sometimes have four of us in the discussion, sometimes three and in some cases, two, like, like today.

Leadership Lessons in Genesis 15

What I thought I would do differently before we read the narrative of Genesis 15 is just kind of pull out some of the leadership lessons and applications. I’ll do this quickly. But at the same time, Winston, I would just encourage you to jump in. I’ll pause after each one. If you’ve got something to add, that’d be great. Again for those of you who are listening, we’re just kind of imagining ourselves around a cup of coffee chatting through this important stuff.

So in Genesis 15, there’s some lessons to learn, I came up with six, and I’m sure there’s a heck of a lot more than six. So hopefully, Winston will have more to add, or at least some nuances to what I’ll share.

Lesson 1: Leaders are People

First lesson is that leaders are people too. And leaders need reassurance in times of uncertainty. Visionary leadership is rooted in trust, rooted in faith. It’s the object of one’s faith that makes faith relevant. Those are all big words and abstract words, but hopefully we’ll get to that.

Particularly because the outcomes are rarely visible, right? That’s the whole idea behind vision. It’s the first creation imagination gives birth to vision and vision is that first creation. The second creation, if you will, is the physical. So the application is a leader must ground their purpose, their vision and something greater than immediate results immediate feedback.

Winston Harris: Yeah, I love that concept, Jim, of not settling for uh immediate gratification and leadership because to your point, really doesn’t exist. Leadership is a long game. And you must have a transcendent why, a mission that exists beyond your own personal desires. The way that I’ve heard it said that’s kind of always stuck with me is, the higher you go in leadership or the more responsibility you get if it’s linear versus going up, if you will. But the more responsibility you have, the less personal victories you’ll have, the less personal trophies you’ll have.

If you’re not embracing that concept in leadership of any sort, I think it’s easy to get discouraged because you don’t see the personal victories or the immediate victories versus embracing the long game, embracing the stewardship of responsibility and having that, once again, that why that goes beyond yourself.

Jim Piper: You know, when you get to my age, I will add that the long game really becomes your friend when you’re younger. When I was younger, I probably hated the idea of the long game because I was living in the present, the now. But being a father of adult kids and grandfather, I really have to play the long game for sanity purposes. I have believed that God is not done with us yet, and he’s still working.

The things that he’s called me to do when I don’t get the results I want right away, I have to ask the question, how does faithfulness play into it? Faithfulness can sometimes be disguised as an excuse. But if you’re doing the right things towards the right direction, almost anything that’s worth doing is a long game situation. That’s where I put my trust. So that’s good.

Lesson 2: Effective Leaders Voice Concerns

The second one that I wrote is that effective leaders voice concerns transparently and seek clarity. What we’re going to read here in a little bit is Abram, who is our main character right now, in the book of Genesis, is really kind of rehashing concerns that he has with his current situation. I don’t know that he’s doubting God, but he is definitely throwing out some grenades as to, “I don’t have this, I don’t have that.” That’s an interesting thing we’re going to look at. And there’s actually a conversation that we’re going to read between Abraham and God.

The application would be for us, creating a culture of honest feedback and dialogue, it actually strengthens trust and alignment. A lot of people think that the opposite might be you’re rocking the boat or you’re not aligned or you’re a rebel, but our weaknesses and our concerns, I think do better being brought to the surface within reason.

Winston Harris: Yeah, I love the idea of just bold honesty here from Abram and you know how we’ll unpack it. Whether in our prayer life or in our teams and our families, having the courage to go to the level of transparency and authenticity about what’s really going on, right? Not staying in the surface level space, but confronting the challenges, confronting the concerns, right?

Abram is having a conversation with God and he’s concerned about some things that God proposed and what God said is not matching what he’s seeing. And it’s a very tangible example that I think a lot of people are gonna be able to connect to especially those who are pursuing God, right? That oftentimes what we believe has not been seen and we kind of have to live in that gap and we call that faith, but faith also can be seen in what some might call doubt, right? And that’s what we’re kind of seeing here with Abram. He’s wrestling, he’s trying to figure out, “You said this, but why aren’t I seeing it?” and being willing to have that bold honesty to voice it.

Lesson 3: Leadership Requires Faith in the Process

Jim Piper: What human likes living in the gap. Right? That’s a very relevant point I think that this chapter brings out. The third, which will bring us about halfway at least to the things that I uncovered. Great leadership requires faith in the process. I mean, it’s somewhat of an overlap, especially when the full picture isn’t clear. It’s a little redundant from the previous but here’s where it’s a little bit different is in the application. Leaders often have to make decisions based on long term vision, rather than immediate evidence.

Winston Harris: You know, I think it’s figuring out what is our process of decision making. That’s the thing that is kind of curious. We all have our ways that we land the plane, if you will, and to get to a decision, to arrive at a decision that is going to move us forward, or is it going to be indecision, which is still a decision, not to make a decision, right? We’re just circling. We’re just not really doing anything for the sake of, you know, some people label it “I’m still thinking about it,” right? People try to put a positive spin on it, but you’re just, you’re not picking a side, if you will.

Jim Piper Jr: Yeah, I mean, I’m, I’m okay with that if someone has also clearly articulated a timeline. You know, I think I’m going to make a decision on this in two weeks, I’m going to make a decision on this on by such and such a date. This is what I’m hoping to feel differently or know differently or gather or whatever. But you’re right, just that constant circling plane. If you’ve ever been in the sky in a plane, and you just keep circling the city, super frustrating, especially if the pilot doesn’t tell you what the heck’s going on. That just happened to me a couple weeks ago. That’s kind of funny.

Lesson 4: Leadership involves Commitments

Anyway, leadership involves making and keeping commitments, often solemn and long term. Got to be careful about the commitments we make. For sure. The application is integrity and a covenantal way of thinking like, for example, loyalty, responsibility, sacrifices. Those are rich words, heavy words, but they’re the core of sustainable leadership. So leadership is not flippant for sure.

Winston Harris: Yeah, and as we’ll, see in the text, the literal sacrificing of an animal and that figurative application for us today, I just think leadership is going to cost you something. And if it doesn’t cost you something, you’re probably not really leading at some level.

Lesson 5: Leadership Outcomes Take Time

Jim Piper: Yeah, yeah, that’s good. All right, we got two more. Some leadership outcomes take time and that is obviously redundant but here’s the twist. And we don’t like this one, but may not materialize in our lifetime. So the application is that leaders must realize that sometimes what they’re doing is they’re sowing seeds of impact that may grow or flourish after our tenure is over. We really got to resist that immediate gratification, don’t we?

Winston Harris: Yeah, it’s almost like, you know, reading that and hearing you talk about it, it’s almost like you have to develop this internal culture of legacy. Like legacy just has to be interwoven into the idea of leadership as almost like this accountability value. Like I can’t just be leading with a urgency for now or for the next three years or five years. Literally to some of the theme of what we’re talking about, it has to be a long game, but the long game is not even a destination for myself. A long game is generational destination. How do I set up what I’m doing so that it can scale beyond my lifetime?

Jim Piper: Yeah, it’s kind like the developing theme here in Genesis 15, even though we haven’t read it yet. I mean, you and I have read it, but we haven’t read it on this episode yet is, is that Abraham is going, “What’s up, man?” You know, and he’s living in the timeframe of now. And then God says, “No, you got to look out farther,” but to help him God creates a unilateral covenant. So now we’re learning some leadership lessons from God himself. That’s that sometimes leadership does take on the whole thing. I mean, sometimes we have to–

It’s certainly not ideal. But there probably are times where you just got to put it on your back. You as a basketball player know that there was probably a time in a certain game in a certain situation that you just felt, “This one’s on me. Win or lose, this one’s on me.” Sometimes that’s the way leadership is. Again, I don’t think that’s the sustainable design for human leadership. But it is a principle I think we’ll pull out here.

Lesson 6: Leaders Discern Timing

Okay, and then we have the sixth principle or lesson that I pulled out is that leaders must discern the right timing for action and trust the process. Lloyd Lawan, a mentor of mine always told me that in most cases, when leaders make a mistake, it’s not usually the decision itself. It’s usually the how and when they carry out that decision. You’ve heard me say that multiple times. And that’s because it’s stuck with me.

That’s because looking back and taking inventory, even when you open your mouth to speak, that’s a perfect example. Sometimes you shouldn’t say anything, just shut your mouth and wait for another time, another deal. Anyway, the application is patience and strategic timing are often more effective than immediate gratification. “I really want to say this right now. I really want to do this right now.” That makes me feel better, but I’m not sure it makes the situation better.

Winston Harris: Yeah, if we can close the loop, almost tie back the very first thing we’ll end up reading where God is saying that essentially, he’s the shield and he’s the reward. He’s the protection and he’s the provision. That gets tested here in this portion of what we’ll talk about where if we really are trusting God to be our protection and to be our provision, that feeds that ability to be patient and to have the appropriate timing because we’re framing everything through, “Okay, I’m not having to protect myself.

I’m not having to lead out of urgency to cover my image or to cover my reputation or to be the one that’s gonna generate the resources. Like I’m partnering with something beyond myself and because I have that concept, that can help me reframe and slow down or I have, once again, a better discernment of the timing.” So, yeah, it’s going be good.

Jim Piper: Yeah, so I know those are all pretty high-level abstract ideas. But now as we read the narrative we’re going to kind of get into the sandbox with Abram. And so I think some of this will land a little bit more practical for us. I’m going to go ahead and start reading through it. I’m reading out the new Living Translation, Winston. And there’s two or three spots where I think I’ll pause. And let me catch a breath and then we can kind of commentate on it a little bit.

Genesis 15

Verse 1-4

Verse one says now just to remind everybody if you’ve been following along with us. Abraham just experienced a huge victory in war. He rescued his nephew and his family and all of his possessions. He kind of has now become this immediate hero. I don’t know about you, Winston, but I’ve been taught this, but I’ve also experienced this. You know, when you go through hard times in your life, you know you’re in hard times.

But sometimes, when you accomplish something great, you get some big goal accomplished or some big event and you came out victorious, I don’t know what it is. But you know, after you go to Disneyland, so to speak, and celebrate, you get kind of lost. I think that’s kind of where Abraham is right now. So that’s how I introduce it. So he had this big victory. And then the next chapter starts this way.

“Sometime later, the Lord spoke to Abraham in a vision and said to him, ‘Do not be afraid.'” That’s weird. “‘Abraham for I will protect you. And your reward will be great.’ But Abraham replied,” I’m assuming he’s replying in the dream. “‘Oh, sovereign Lord, what good are all your blessings when I don’t even have a son? Since you’ve given me no children.'” I kind of like that I kind of don’t. “‘Eliezer of Damascus, a servant in my household, will inherit all my wealth. You have given me no descendants of my own. So one of my servants will be my hei.'”

I want to pause there just and say this. It’s pretty clear what Abrams’ worldview is. He certainly doesn’t believe in an agnostic– He doesn’t have an agnostic posture where God his way out there. Here is a biological problem that he and his wife are experiencing. And he’s sending that to God’s address that this is His doing.

Winston Harris: I mean, to your point, even setting this up, the head space that you can get into after you take a mountain, it’s almost like you’re coming back down the mountain. It’s like the mountain never really satisfies. It always over promises, under delivers. You almost imagine Abram is kind of left with this sense of almost frustration in a way. And maybe God has already kind of, to your point, God’s messages, “Man, great job, Abram. Hey, don’t be scared.” It’s kind of like an odd, like “Why would God say that?”

But then you also have to think maybe there’s some stuff that’s already brewing in Abram. Like he just won this major victory over like four kings. So maybe there’s some retaliation. You know, maybe his mind starts playing with him and he’s getting anxious and he’s getting fearful. You would think he’s confident and on top of the world, but maybe he’s like, “I just got through that. Maybe I shouldn’t have won that.”

All of these doubts start creeping in. You start to see that in this conversation with God. “Now, I don’t have what I think I need. I don’t have what you said would happen.” It’s interesting space for people to get in after what they think they want had happened. They’re on the other side of the mountain, if you will, and they’re kind of wrestling with some things.

Verse 5-8

Jim Piper: Yeah, I think in my life, I’ve learned how fast you can go from a hero to a zero, whether it’s in the public eye or in your own or both. It is an interesting experience in life. I left off there where he says, “So you know, this dude that’s in my house is gonna end up taking all this stuff.” And so then in verse four, it says, “Then the Lord said to him, ‘Nope, no. Your servant will not be your heir, for you will have a son of your own, who will be your heir.’ Then the Lord took Abram outside–” Is this still in the dream?

“Then the Lord took Abraham outside and said to him, ‘Look up into the sky and count the stars if you can. That’s how many descendants you will have.'” And verse six is a popular verse in the Bible. In this New Living Translation, I don’t remember it in this way, because of the paraphrasing of this, but and it’s quoted in the New Testament, but it says, “And Abraham believed the Lord,” he believed God. He believed him.

An interesting phrase with this conjunction here, “And the Lord counted him as righteous, because of his faith.” “Then the Lord told him I am the Lord who brought you out of her of the Chaldeans to give you this land as your possession.” But Abraham replied, here comes his second complaint.

So the first one was a son. Oh, sovereign Lord, how can I be sure that I will actually possess it? Man, he’s definitely got some doubt going on. Which you know, again, is kind of a reassuring thing, because that’s kind how I am. One day I’ve got my sword and my shield and I feel strong and confident. The next day I go, “Who am I? Where am I? What is this all about?”

Verse 9-16

Verse nine says, “The Lord told him bring me a three-year-old heifer, a three-year-old female goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtle dove, and a young pigeon. So Abraham presented all these to him and killed them.” He sacrificed them. “Then he cut each animal down the middle and laid the half side by side. He did not, however, cut the birds in half. Just impractical, too small.

Jim Piper: Some vultures swooped down to eat the carcasses, but Abram chased them away. That is one of the funniest verses in the Bible to me. What is the relevance of– so I just saw now in my mind’s eye Abram go like, “Shoo, shoo, shoo.” Okay, cool. That’s something deep there, I guess. “As the sun was going down, Abram fell into a deep sleep. And a terrifying darkness came down over him. Then the Lord said to Abraham, ‘You can be sure that your descendants will be strangers in a foreign land, where they will be oppressed as slaves for 400 years.'”

So now God prophesies, tells him about the future cast vision, but not the best kind of vision. 14, here comes the but we’re almost done with this chapter. “‘But I will punish the nation that enslaves them. And in the end, they will come away with great wealth.'” For those of you listening obviously, we’re talking about the Exodus, we’re talking about that movie that many of us have watched on TV about Moses.

“‘As for you, you will die in peace and be buried at a ripe old age. After four generations, your descendants will return here to this land for the sins of the Amorites do not yet warrant their destruction. There’s another note that seems to be out of context, but there it is, I’m to pause there before we get into this uh covenant ritual. Any thoughts that you had in this first section just regarding this dialogue between God and Abraham?

Winston Harris: We see there is that God’s not discouraged by our doubt, that God’s not disqualifying Abram because Abram’s asking questions, because Abram’s having a transparent dialogue. And I think for those of us who are believers we can try to make our dialogue with God very put together, very polished, or we don’t participate in a dialogue with God because we’re waiting until we get to a head space or an inner space where we feel like we can have a put together dialogue with God.

All the while, God is wanting to have these kinds of dialogues, these honest frustrated questioning. Whether you’re on the mountaintop or you’re you know, in the valley, if you will, God is looking to have these transparent conversations. I think personally for myself, some of the places where I’ve seen the most formation in my spiritual life has been me getting transparent with God, learning how to put language to things that were inside of me that maybe I don’t feel like there’s a safe space anywhere else, but there’s a safe space in his presence to start to put language to.

Man, there’s this beautiful exchange where he meets you like he’s meeting Abram and he’s responding to Abram and God’s responding in honesty. I just see this honest conversation on both sides. That’s in the midst of honesty, transformation is happening, vision’s happening. The future is taking shape. This section here, almost like bookmarking it, just like bold honesty, getting real with God. The idea that you can’t change what you’re not willing to confront comes up.

If you’re not willing to actually get real about the things, the questions you have, the frustrations that you have, whether they’re right or not, God is big enough to handle those things. He’s able to redirect our thinking in these moments where we’re willing to even engage God in this manner.

Jim Piper: I’m glad you said that I think I needed to hear that today because when I rewind the tape of my life, when I have had those, what I might call not so reverent conversations with God, I’m not saying this is the magic potion or the combination to the lock that that opens heavens gates and all of that preachy kind of sing songy stuff. But I can say that I don’t think it’s a coincidence that resolution came after. I can’t always say my desire, but in many cases, my desire. And in some cases, not. I don’t think that’s simply a rolling of the dice. I think that’s part of a bigger picture that I don’t understand.

That gives me courage. What you said, that gives me courage. You know, so here’s where we’re at in Genesis 15. We know that Abram scored a big victory. We kind of read it in between the lines that after some time it says, so we don’t know whether that’s a year or two years, we know, we are a month or 90 day, we don’t know what the timeframe is. But at some point, he had a slump.

Maybe that was that what we said earlier, he now feels like he’s gone from a hero to a zero, or maybe God went on vacation or you know, something like that, which would not be unusual for the people of that day’s theology to believe that God is omnipresent wasn’t something that would have been developed, at least in the vast majority.

Instead, the heavens were divided by gods, and even those who believed in Abraham, or in Abraham’s God, probably still did not have an idea of omnipresence. Even more so he probably felt alone in that. And again, I read between the lines, I don’t know.

Then of course, he gets this dream. And he’s got a couple complaints that he’s lodging. First one is he doesn’t have a son, how can he be a great king and a great leader of the world if he doesn’t have a son, that doesn’t make any sense. And then the second is, where is this land that you said that– We’re still in the same spot. We’re still raising hay and I don’t see any big walls going up, I don’t see any kingdoms.

With those two complaints, God responds to both. He says, you will have a son, and you will have a land. There will be a hiccup. It’ll be a 400-year hiccup. You don’t need to worry about that because you’ll be dead. Right? So I think we’re bringing us up to speed. And then God does something crazy. That’s how we end this chapter. I pick up in verse 17.

Verse 17-21

“After the sun went down and darkness fell, Abram saw a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch. Pass between the halves of the carcasses.” Just a reminder, everybody. Don’t forget about the sacrifice. He laid those out kind of like a border, out of bounds line. You know, that kind of a thing, a fence. I’m going to read that again.

“After the sun went down and darkness fell, Abram saw a smoking fire pot.” He saw that that must have been weird. “And a flaming torch passed between the halves of the carcasses. So the Lord made a covenant with Abram that day.” This was a covenant move here, a covenant act. It was a signing of a document in God’s ways, in God’s methods.

“So the Lord made a covenant with Abram that day and said, ‘I have given this land to your descendants, all the way from the border of Egypt to the great Euphrates River. The land now occupied by the,” and he lists all kinds of -ites, the Kinnites, the Kindesites, etc. All the way to the Jebusites. And that’s how it ends.

What is really powerful here is for us to examine for a little bit. What is the symbolism? We’re assuming that, you know, we’re seeing a smoking pot have invisible legs floating along with a torch floating between these sacrifices. We can surmise from the text that this is a promise. This is a signature. This is God’s signature. It’s his seal. This is his act of promising that these things will come about. But what else is it?

Winston Harris: I think there’s something to be said for a God who’s willing to make a commitment with humanity here. You can kind of see this as Abram being a whining leader who’s not getting his way and he wants certain things and who is God to even entertain that. But I mean, the bigger picture is God is working a plan out. Sometimes, you get the script flipped and you think this is Abram trying to get what he wants, all the while God is actually getting what he wants through Abram. And so God is willing to make this commitment with Abram.

To your point, I think it’s a sobering reality that even what Abram is wanting to participate in, is not what he thinks it is. God gives him a snapshot of that. Like, “You think you want this legacy and you think you want all the things that I’m promising you, but you have to know the promise is complex. The promise is layered. This isn’t a fast track to fame and wealth and status. There’s all kinds of nuance. There is literal struggle that is interwoven into this promise. And I’m not gonna withhold that from you.”

Once again, this bold honesty, right? I’m gonna let you know upfront what you are committing to, what we’re getting into, what this contract is gonna require. I think what a picture of the character of God here. Even the flaming torch and the fire pot, like how God chooses to literally show up. If you’re a Bible nerd out there, God is continually in the Old Testament showing up as a cloud or as fire, right? As a cloud or as fire. Like there’s literal, a manifesting of God’s presence comes out, a tangible.

That might seem weird here, but in our realities, there are literal tangible ways we can see God affecting our environments, right? Like the unseen affects the seen. I just think there’s a basic parallel there. But this God who’s willing to make a commitment, who’s willing to enter into.

Jim on Unilateral Promise

Jim Piper Jr: Yeah, that’s really good. I think you’re absolutely right. I think the smoking pot and the flaming torch is a symbol of God. Just like the burning bush was to Moses and just so that everybody understands. In ancient days, what God is doing is he’s actually using a custom of the people and he’s engaging in that custom. So when you would make a deal, you would sacrifice this animal, and you would walk ah between the animal as a promise that if you break the promise, it will bring death upon you.

So people did not enter into those covenants without clearly thinking through that. Here is God he in a sense lowers himself to our covenant. And he makes a pledge. Moses– Sorry. Abraham doesn’t walk through this. God does. God unilaterally makes a promise. But to what you were saying, Winston. That was another message that says Abraham, maybe you think this is about you. But it’s not. It’s not.

And I mean, just like we said, “By the way, your family’s going to be enslaved for four centuries. But you know, it’s going to come out okay.” I don’t know about you. I just thought, “Wow.” It points to Jesus Christ that there’s something that the Bible teaches that Jesus has done for us that we could not do for ourselves. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say Abram could not have taken the new land. He could not have had a son without God intervening.

And in the same way, we have a death problem. We have a sin problem and we can’t do anything about it. That’s once again why God stepped in and provided Christ. And really, if you think about it, it’s a unilateral promise. We didn’t ask for it, we didn’t know we needed it. We were dead. It was God who made us alive. Man, that’s a good chapter, isn’t it?

Winston Harris: Phenomenal.

Conclusion

Jim Piper: Well, our next one will be Genesis 16, and I’m excited about that. Thank you for joining me today, Winston, and hopefully the other boys will be back for our next one.

Outro

Winston Harris: Thank you for joining us here at The Today Count Show. Be sure to like and subscribe on whatever platform you listen to or watch, so you don’t miss any content. Stay tuned for more coming soon.

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