Episode 198: How One Bad Decision Tore a Family Apart (Genesis 25 Study)

—————————–

Today Counts Show Episode 198

Preview

Winston: So, he was out there. Obviously, he didn’t get what he needed. He didn’t do what he set out to do. So, just that thought, on the heel of a potential failure, he’s really susceptible to making poor decisions.

Jim: Because dad’s going to be disappointed because they’re having lentil stew. What you’re massaging out of this, Gary, is that here the war has begun. He’s the quiet one always.

Gary: Mother supports him. We’ll see that coming up. She whispers in his ear.

Jim: Haven’t you been warned to watch out for the quiet ones?

Appreciation of our Supporters

Winston: Hey, before we jump into the podcast, we want to thank all our donors and supporters who make the Today Count Show possible. It’s through your generosity that we’re able to shape leaders through this content and this podcast. And be sure to like, subscribe, and follow wherever you find yourself coming across this content. All right, let’s get to the podcast.

Introduction

Jim: Hey, it’s good to see you guys again, and welcome everybody to the Today Count Show. We are in Genesis 25 of the Genesis Project. And if you’re not aware, we have been walking through the book of Genesis. After today, Lord willing, if we get through this chapter, we will be halfway through the book of Genesis. With me today is our loyal and helpful friend Gary Harps, Pastor Winston Harris, and myself, Jim Piper.

Abraham’s Death and Legacy in Genesis 25

Setting the Stage in Genesis 25 — Legacy, Transition, and the Next Generation

I’m going to jump right in. We’re in Genesis 25. And here’s what I’m going to say. Man, there’s so much here that you want to listen to in this podcast. We’re looking at how somebody intentionally brought the last chapter of their life out to the forefront, how he handled that. We’re going to be looking at what the next generation looks like. There’s just a lot of stuff in here to talk about. We’re going to see how the next generation was born and what that looks like. It’s crazy.

Abraham’s Final Acts — Inheritance, Separation, and Intentional Leadership

So anyway, in Genesis chapter 25, it starts like this. Abraham married another wife. Of course, Sarah died, whose name was Keturah. She gave birth to a bunch of people. And then in verse three, it talks about their descendants. And verse four goes on more to their descendants.

Verse five, it says, “Abraham gave everything he owned to his son Isaac.” Now, you might remember that Isaac was the son of he and his wife Sarah. But before he died, he gave gifts to the sons of his concubines and sent them off to a land in the east away from Isaac. Just want to make sure we all got that.

So this is kind of like his living trust. He hands everything he owns to his son Isaac. And then he cuts these other people free, other people that served him and his rulership, if you will, and sent them off with gifts. And it doesn’t say, but I’m sure they were very generous gifts.

A Peaceful Ending — Abraham’s Death and an Unexpected Reunion

Verse 7 says, “Abraham lived for 175 years, and he died a ripe old age, having lived a long and satisfying life. He breathed his last and joined his ancestors in death. His sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah near Mamre in the field of Ephron, son of Zohar the Hittite. This was the field Abraham had purchased from the Hittites and where he had buried his wife Sarah. After Abraham’s death, God blessed his son Isaac, who settled near Beer Lahai Roi in the Negev.”

So why don’t we stop there, guys, because there’s a lot there to unpack before we go. I’ll start.

One of the things, and I’m kind of jumping around, but one of the things that surprised me in this text the first time I read it, and every time I read it, is we have so much space in Genesis. And what we see here is both Isaac, the chosen son, if you will, and Ishmael, the one that was cast out from the family, came together to bury Abraham.

Obviously, there must have been a lot that went on between the time Ishmael was cast away and Abraham’s death. What do you guys think about that? And what other things do you guys see?

Family Dynamics, Age Gaps, and Funeral Realities

Gary: Anybody doing the math? I’ve got penciled by margin. He lived 75 years beyond Sarah’s death.

Jim: That sounds like it might be right. But I think what stuck out to me along with that, Gary, was he was already considered old when he and Sarah were trying to have kids, right? And though it said her womb was barren, I guess I should have clued in on that, but in my mind, I wasn’t sure whose physical problem it was. But now apparently that mystery has been solved.

Gary: Now, in terms of family dynamics, it means he’s got kids that range probably a hundred years in age difference. Crazy. So, Winston, you need to go for that.

Winston: My wife Mia might need to join the podcast. She might have something to say about that.

I always think it’s interesting, especially being in ministry, the dynamics of funerals, the dynamics that death brings. For some families it brings out intentionality, thoughtfulness, consideration, and for others it brings out the worst attributes and characteristics.

Though the text doesn’t tell us what the dynamics were, it just had to be at least awkward, right? There had to be some level of disconnection with the history of these two brothers, how they grew up, and all the favorite, not favorite, blessed, not blessed, as we’ll see.

But I think it’s interesting that they were there together and there was a level of reconciliation there. Obviously, if there was some level of extreme conflict, that would have been communicated, and it doesn’t seem like it was that. So you can assume there was some reconciliation there. I think that’s pretty interesting.

Leadership Transitions and Releasing Control

Gary: Something you said, Jim, I hadn’t really put together, but apparently with the leadership structure, the way tribal leadership worked, it sounds like, as you point out, that he released them from that, at least a lot of the family, which would have cut down on some of the inner family tensions. It turns it into more of an external conflict.

But I went to chat and I said, “How many descendants are there of Abraham and how many countries?” And of course, nobody knows that exactly, but they estimate 19 different countries and over a half a billion people.

Jim: Wow.

Gary: And I was trying to think, is there anybody else in history other than Adam that we can point to as one origination of the family? I don’t know of any. Is there anybody else in history that’s pointed out as the father of lots of things? Maybe in the Chinese or Greek realm or something. I don’t know.

Abraham as Peacemaker and the Long View of Leadership

Jim: It would have to be on the Asian side. Even in the study of world religions, Abraham is still kind of that central figure. Not to beat a dead horse, but I think, like you guys have pointed out, what we’ve learned about Abraham now for sure since he’s gone in our narrative is that when we look at the stories we’ve read and discussed, the guy seemed to be a pretty friendly guy. He seemed to be a negotiator, a dealmaker, a peacemaker, an ambassador.

Overall, he seemed to be well-liked, even when he did things that weren’t smart. Or maybe they were smart, but people were upset with his shrewdness, might be a way to say it.

Not to beat up on Sarah, but Sarah definitely cast this kid out. Here we see, in a very important time of mourning and respect, this kid that’s been cast out is now there hand in hand is the picture that we get with Isaac.

So to me, it’s not over till it’s over. It’s always important for us to play the long game in believing, hoping, trusting.

Back to what you were saying, Gary, it’s kind of like in modern day, right? It’s like when a new leader takes the helm. We see so often in our culture, whether it be in corporate America or team sports, generally speaking, the new boss kind of dismisses most and then brings on his own. I would think it just gets things moving faster versus what would happen.

The only place I know that doesn’t do that as commonly is the church. I don’t know if it’s because we’re so idealistic about utopia or whether our shared mission is so clear it makes it more possible. I’m not sure.

Blessing After Loss — When Something Must Expire for God’s Promise to Continue

Winston: In verse 11, where it touches on after Abraham’s death God blessed Isaac, seemingly just a practical statement, but what it made me think about is oftentimes you can’t fully step into God’s blessing until something has expired. Oftentimes we try to live in the in-between. We try to have our cake and eat it too. And we want what God has for us, but we don’t necessarily want to allow the places of comfort, the places of nostalgia, and the known, the places that we have more assurance of, more trust that we can put in familiar.

We don’t want to let those things expire. So sometimes we don’t experience all the blessing that God has for us because we simply refuse to mourn. It’s interesting that it specifically states Isaac wasn’t blessed until Abraham died. Obviously, there are cultural implications there, but I think there are spiritual ones too.

Jim: I’m convicted by that. The way I heard that was a lot of times I don’t receive the blessing moving forward because I’m holding on to things for security in the past. I’m convicted by what you said. At least that’s what I heard.

The Family of Ishmael and God’s Promise

Going on, verse 12 says this: “Now this is the account of the family of Ishmael.” And I thought this was just as interesting as the previous section. The son of Abraham through Hagar, not his wife Sarah.

Again, correct me if I’m wrong, but I think in the beginning of the story the Scriptures say that Abraham took Hagar to be a wife. I’m pretty sure it says that. Maybe I’m wrong. But then once the fracture began to happen, she was constantly referred to back as the servant. I might be wrong about that, but I could have sworn that that–

So this is the account of the family of Ishmael, son of Abraham through Hagar, Sarah’s Egyptian servant. Here is a list. I’m not going to go over the list.

Verse 16 says, “These 12 sons.” That stuck out. You guys can expose why. These 12 sons of Ishmael became the founders of 12 tribes named after them, listed according to the places they settled and encamped.

Ishmael, we’re just zooming through his life, lived 137 years. Then he breathed his last and joined his ancestors in death. Ishmael’s descendants occupied the region from Havilah to Shur, which is east of Egypt in the direction of Asshur. And then it closes with this sentence: “There they lived in open hostility toward all their relatives.”

The Lasting Impact of Abraham’s Family Lines

Gary: I mean, it’s a wonder what God was doing in this whole– It’s almost like three groups of people: Sarah’s line, the Ishmael line, and all the others that he sent away. There are like three different groups. Even today, so much of our world politics and center is rooted in these relationships among these people groups.

I forget who told me this, but in the tribal realm you’re either fighting with your neighbors or you’re fighting with yourself, but you’re fighting. And it seems like America’s becoming more like that.

God’s Promise, Foreknowledge, and Prophecy

Jim: This section got me thinking about when the Lord told Abraham this, when the Lord told Sarah that, when the Lord told Hagar this, told Ishmael this, told Isaac this. Was God making that happen, or was God simply putting on display his foreknowledge?

I got stuck on that thought when I was—

Gary: I’m drawing this from memory, but didn’t he tell Hagar that, “I will make a great nation”?

Jim: Yes. And he also said that Ishmael would be constantly in battle throughout his life, right? I take that in Old Testament terms to mean not just Ishmael but his descendants.

But what do you guys think? Do you think when God prophesied that, so to speak? I guess you can call it prophecy because we’re locked into time, and so he’s pointing to the future. Is he making those things happen? Is he cursing, so to speak? Or is he displaying his foreknowledge? And if he’s displaying his foreknowledge, why?

Gary: That sounds like a pastor question to me.

Winston: Where’s Pastor Matt? He left me hanging.

Blessing Outside the Covenant

Where my mind went was there’s just some God principles that, for lack of a better term, mysteriously apply whether you are in covenant relationship with him or not. Seedtime and harvest, right? That’s a simple framework where whether you believe God or not, if you sow a seed, if you do the right things with that seed, it’s going to bear fruit positively.

There’s really generous people that aren’t Christians that experience the type of blessing a Christian could experience if they were just as generous. And so I kind of frame that like this: that Ishmael experienced blessing. He experienced a promise that was spoken by God even though he was not in covenant relationship, and even though he didn’t get specifically the blessing that Isaac got. What God says still applied to him.

The Pattern of Twelve and God’s Intentional Design

Gary: I don’t know what Winston said, and the 12 tribes put it all together clear back in chapter 21, verse 14, where he says, “And the son of the maid,” meaning Hagar, “I will make a nation because he is your descendant.” He had promised Abraham that I’ll bless the world and make a nation out of you, but this is a very explicit statement.

There aren’t too many cases where God says, “I am going to do this.” And this is one of those. It doesn’t seem to me like it’s an accident. It’s an intentional act of God that he is going to make a nation.

And you notice the role 12 plays in forming nations. Israel originally was 12 tribes. We’ve got the 12 disciples, which is building the church. And then you’ve got these 12 descendants of Ishmael, which he says is a nation. This 12 idea is a pattern in Scripture for a nation.

Blessing, Consequence, and Disobedience

Jim: So maybe it’s case by case. If we go with your point, Gary, God says, “Hey, look, I’m going to do this.” And he wanted everyone to know what he was going to do for whatever reason.

On the other case, though, of Ishmael and his descendants being in constant conflict, I still wonder if that is repercussions for Abraham and Sarah stepping out of line, and that being the judgment for that. And then God simply wanting to point that out, not necessarily explicitly, but maybe to them it was explicit.

I don’t know because one thing we know about linguistics is that it’s really important to understand who the audience is. If you understand who the audience is, you’re going to have a better opportunity to understand what the author is trying to communicate. And that’s kind of where I get stuck.

So anyway, we start off this chapter looking at the death of Abraham, how he takes care of his estate, and then we look at what happened to Ishmael, one of his sons, that one through Hagar. And now we transition into the other side of the family, the blessed, I guess you could say, or maybe better than blessed.

Winston, you use the word covenant more, the covenant side of this story, because there is a difference right there. There’s a difference, just like you were saying with the generosity thing.

A Promise Born from Disobedience

Winston: And I was just going to say the Gary mentioned that Ishmael was receiving this promise because he was a descendant of Abraham, which I think is interesting. I was just talking to a friend about Exodus 20, verse 5: “I lay the sins of the parents upon their children.” The entire family is affected. That promise was a result of disobedience.

Jim: Say that again, Winston.

Winston: So what Ishmael is experiencing is a promise, but the promise was only a promise from disobedience. That wouldn’t have even been a reality if Abraham had never disobeyed.

Jim: Bringing together in harmony what you guys are saying is, I don’t like using the word curse, but I don’t know what else to call it. He was both blessed and cursed. He was blessed because he was a son of Abraham. And he was cursed because of the way he came to be.

The Mystery of God’s Sovereignty

Gary: You’re really into some of these things that are unfathomable about God because in the next generation with Jacob and Esau, there’s a passage that says, “I loved Jacob before he was born and not Esau.” And so the wonderment of God’s plan and his purpose.

I find myself way back in verse eight, where it says Abraham breathed his last and died at a ripe old age, an old man and satisfied with life, and he was gathered to his people. And I’m at that ripe old age stage, not 175, but maybe 75.

And I find myself thinking, why have I had the life I’ve had compared to other people? Mine has just been rich and blessed. I haven’t had some of the sicknesses in my family that some people have, or the child born in Africa that never knows any of the blessings. You find yourself wondering.

At some point, you have to let go and say God is sovereign. But my mind doesn’t want to go there. My mind wants to figure it out. It wants to know, well, why is Ishmael like this? And why is—it’s hard to let go.

Jim: It is. But go ahead, Winston.

God’s Math Always Maths

A Twilight Zone Illustration of Destiny and Death

Winston: This might be very unhelpful, but this is where my mind goes. I grew up on the Twilight Zone, and I recently stumbled back into the Twilight Zone. And there was an episode I watched just last night, and there’s this gentleman, he’s a pitchman, a salesman, 69 years old.

The episode revolves around Mr. Death. Mr. Death meets the salesman and essentially says, “Hey, your departure date is tonight at midnight.” And so the pitchman is trying to get out of his departure date, and he basically makes a deal with Mr. Death.

Mr. Death tells him that there are only certain exceptions, and one exception is some kind of life’s work that you would have to have in process that would give you an extension. And so the pitchman, in real time, kind of says, “Oh, well, I want to make a pitch for the heavens, a pitch for the angels, a pitch that would open heaven up,” basically thinking he’s tricking death.

And Mr. Death agrees to it, and then Mr. Death says, “Well, so when are you planning on that pitch?” The salesman says, “We’ll see. Maybe next year, maybe in a few years.”

And so Mr. Death is like, “Okay, you think you can outsmart me.” Well, I had an appointment for midnight, and because you have disrupted that appointment, I have to make other plans.

You Cannot Outsmart Destiny

In the context of the episode, this pitchman is very fond of the kids in the neighborhood. And there’s a specific girl in the episode that he seems to have a connection with and gives her a toy earlier in the episode.

Right after that interaction with Mr. Death, this girl gets hit by a car and she’s sick. The doctor in the episode says, “We’ll see at midnight if she’s going to make it.”

And the pitchman starts putting two and two together that because he didn’t go at midnight, now this girl is going to take his place. And so he’s waiting around at this girl’s bedside for Mr. Death.

Mr. Death shows up at about quarter till, and he starts making a pitch to Mr. Death. And he’s selling him all these products and all these things, and it’s kind of comical that Mr. Death would even engage in it. There’s a tie and just silly things.

And so midnight hits, and Mr. Death misses his appointment with the girl. And now he’s missed two appointments. He starts talking to this pitchman, and the pitchman’s like, “Yeah, I guess I made a pitch that opened up heaven. I guess I made a pitch for the angels. I guess I made a pitch for the supernatural.”

That was kind of the totality, or the full circle moment. And Mr. Death says, “So, are you ready now?” He said, “Yes.” And so they go on into eternity.

I mentioned that because no matter what, somebody was going at midnight. No matter what, you were not going to escape destiny.

God’s Promise Cannot Be Outsmarted

And so even when we get to Abraham and we get to Ishmael, God’s math always maths. And so God was going to keep his word. You weren’t going to outsmart God. You weren’t going to out-God God. God had made a promise, and the promise was going to happen. Even in disobedience, the promise was going to happen.

Jim: Yeah. Twilight Zone had a lot of really good moral lessons, if not some good theology in there.

Story Ad

Winston: Great leaders don’t ignore their past; they learn from it. Every decision you’ve made, every mistake, every win, every failure, it’s all shaping the leader you’re becoming.

In Story: The Art of Learning from Your Past, you’ll discover how to turn experience into wisdom, setbacks into strategy, and pain into purpose. This isn’t just a book about reflection. It’s a playbook for growth. If you want to lead with clarity, humility, and confidence, your story matters. Learn from it. Grab your copy of Story: The Art of Learning from Your Past, where books are sold.

The Birth and Destiny of Jacob and Esau

Jim: All right. And so we continue on now, and we’re looking at Isaac. It says this, the account of the family of Isaac in verse 19, the son of Abraham. When Isaac was 40, he married Rebekah. You guys remember that? We read that not long ago. The daughter of Bethuel, the Aramean from Paddan Aram, and the sister of Laban the Aramean.

Isaac pleaded with the Lord on behalf of his wife because she was unable to have children. It seemed to be a common thing. The Lord answered Isaac’s prayer, and Rebekah became pregnant with twins. But the two children struggled with each other in her womb. That must have been fun carrying those guys as a mom.

So she went to ask the Lord about it. “What is happening to me?” she asked. And the Lord told her, “The sons in your womb will become two nations.” What a crazy thought. From the very beginning, the two nations will be rivals. One nation will be stronger than the other, and your older son will serve your younger son.

The Birth of Twins

And when the time came to give birth, Rebekah discovered that she did indeed have twins. I always think it’s funny how the Scriptures do that. God says something, then we’re still shocked that it actually happened.

Verse 25, the first one was very red at birth and covered with thick hair like a fur coat, so they named him Esau. And when I studied that, I think Esau in Hebrew sounds like the word hair. I think it was the word hair.

Then verse 26, the other twin was born with his hand grasping Esau’s heel, so they named him Jacob. If I remember right, Hebrew for Jacob sounds like heel or deceiver. I don’t know how heel and deceiver can sound the same, but that’s because it’s Hebrew.

Anyway, Isaac was 60 years old when the twins were born.

Let’s pause there before we step into their young adulthood.

Sanctity of Life and God’s Design from the Beginning

Gary: Here we have another nation being introduced. Ishmael with 12, and now Jacob has 12, which is the next chapter. So a lot of nation building going on here.

Jim: I can’t help but think about the sanctity of life. These two already have a destiny. They already have a personality. They already are driven in certain ways, or as we’ll find out, not driven in other ways. Jacob more laid back. Esau, the outdoorsman, the aggressive guy, the guy who doesn’t plan. Esau, the guy you want to play middle linebacker on your football team. And maybe Jacob’s the architect of the playbook. I don’t know.

So that’s what came to me, that when you read Scripture and life begins, they’re already designed. They’re designed much more than fingers and toes and a heartbeat. That’s what came to my mind.

Two Nations, Two Kingdoms, and the Role of Intercession

Winston: It’s really good. I also thought about, speaking of the nations, that keeps reoccurring, and specifically the two nations. Then we just saw the parallel between the two nations, Ishmael and Isaac. And I may be going out on a limb here, but what is in the physical is a reflection of what’s in the unseen realm, the spiritual realm.

And so there are two nations. There are two kingdoms that exist. This pattern keeps presenting itself, these two nations, these two kingdoms that are at conflict, that are at war. It just seems to support that narrative, that idea that there is this constant tension, that there is this duality that is going to constantly exist and be a present narrative in humanity.

So the two nations thing I thought was interesting, that specific framework that we keep seeing generationally here in the story.

And something that personally blessed me was just this idea of intercession. Verse 21 says, “Isaac prayed to the Lord on behalf of his wife because she was childless. The Lord answered his prayer.” Which, in transparency, I’m living that. I am interceding for healing for my wife. She’s facing some physical symptoms that aren’t great. And just that encouragement that you can intercede for somebody else, and God will respond. God is faithful to respond. So I love that.

God’s Sovereignty and Assigned Roles

Gary: It’s a little bit off topic, but what you just said, Winston, about this goes back to the sovereignty of God. What was a situation where somebody sinned and God required somebody else to pray for his forgiveness? What was that scenario? You know what I’m talking about?

Jim: Not talking about Job, are you? Where Job began to pray for his friends. I can’t remember where.

Gary: Yeah, maybe it was Job, where he said Job will have to pray for you.

All I’m getting at is when God, in his sovereignty, puts us in certain roles. So here’s Jacob before he’s born. God has decided he’s going to do this. Ishmael’s group is going to be in defiance. God didn’t say that; they just are in defiance.

And now you’ve got Jacob and Esau in separation, another war, if you want to call it that, another separation. When you said praying for your wife, it just reminded me that God puts people in roles. There are things you as a husband can do for your wife, and there are things that Abraham could do because he was ordained to be the father of these nations. It’s in God’s will. It’s not ours.

Sometimes we want to, what does it say in the New Testament, kick against the goads? You remember that weird phrase that Paul heard? I always wonder what does that mean. But we want to fight God’s sovereignty. You see a lot of that in this.

Jim: It’s like falling into a cactus.

Gary: Is that what kicking the goads is?

Jim: Well, not exactly.

Gary: But it hurts.

Setting the Stage for Jacob and Israel

Jim: Yeah. And then we get to this exciting part where this next part sets the stage for introducing us to the shaping of this man named Jacob, who will eventually have his name changed to Israel. God will be continuing his revelation of himself through this nation called Israel.

So we’ll be spending probably seven chapters learning about Jacob, the father of Israel, I think we can call him.

Esau and Jacob: Favoritism and Family Dysfunction

The Birthright Sold: Desire and Deception

It says in verse 27, as the boys grew up, Esau became a skillful hunter. He was an outdoorsman, but Jacob had a quiet temperament, preferring to stay at home. Isaac loved Esau. This is what Gary was referring to earlier. I think Isaac loved Esau because he enjoyed eating the wild game Esau brought home, but Rebekah loved Jacob.

It’s so interesting to me. Nowadays we would consider favoritism to be a really bad thing. And I still think it’s bad here. We know it’s bad because more deceit comes down the road. We know this story. Welcome once again to dysfunctional family display.

The Stew and the Moment of Weakness

Verse 29. One day when Jacob was cooking some stew– This story blows my mind. He obviously wasn’t out there for four hours hunting. I’m pulling the line here. Let me stick to the script.

One day when Jacob was cooking some stew, Esau arrived home from the wilderness exhausted and hungry. Esau said to Jacob, “I’m starved.” Esau, the elder, said to Jacob, the one holding onto Esau’s heel through the birthing process, “I’m starved. Give me some of that red stew.” This is how Esau got his other name, Edom, which means red.

Trading the Birthright for a Meal

Verse 31. All right. Jacob replied, “But trade me your rights as the firstborn.” Are you serious?

I have a hard time getting through. Well, I guess this is hangry at a degree that I’ve never been at. I’ve been hangry, but this is crazy. “Look, I’m dying of starvation,” said Esau. “What good is my birthright to me now?” But Jacob said, “First you must swear that your birthright is mine.” So, Esau swore an oath, thereby selling all his rights as the firstborn to his brother Jacob for some bread and soup.

Anyway, verse 34 ends this way. Then Jacob gave Esau some bread and lentil stew. Lentil. Goodness. Esau ate the meal, then got up and left. He showed contempt for his rights as the firstborn. What an interesting way to end this chapter.

Brothers, Boundaries, and Serious Consequences

Gary: Did he not think he meant it? Was it like boys argue and jest and all this stuff? But he made him swear. He sounded like he was pretty serious.

Jim: Especially brothers, right? Brothers fight all the time.

Gary: I’ve got four grandsons all close together, and my wife gets very frustrated with their behavior. And I said, that’s not going to change. They’ll grow out of it eventually. That’s what boys do. That’s how they figure out where the boundaries are.

Jim: The punches will hurt more as they get bigger.

Desire, Decision-Making, and Emotional State

Obviously, one of the leadership lessons here is, are we aware of our state before we make big decisions in our life? Are we aware of them? Because to me, I’m going into that kitchen or wherever it was, and I’m going to knock Jacob over and grab a piece of bread. I’m not going to get into the debate with my little brother. I’m going to punch him in the nose and take what I need.

Gary: Rather than negotiate with him.

This, I forget, I think it was in one of our Sunday school classes recently, we were talking about this. In the New Testament it talks about you want something and you can’t have it, so you escalate, and it describes this hierarchy of frustration. You realize what creatures of desire we are. We really act out of our desire. There’s some point where you go from, I’d like this, to I need this, to I’ve got to have it, or lust or whatever you want to call that extreme. And when you get to that end, your reason stops. Your desire completely overrides any reasoning.

And he’s there. He thinks he’s so hungry that he can’t even think about what are the consequences of this. I’ve been there. You can tell when you’re in this state of, I don’t really care about the consequences, I just want this right now.

The Soul, the Will, and Self-Awareness

Jim: I had an opportunity to talk a little bit Tuesday morning to a group of people. Winston was there, and I was talking about that statement that Jesus made in the Gospel of Mark where he says, basically, I’ll paraphrase, “What good is it for a man to gain the whole world and yet lose his soul, and what is more valuable than a man’s soul?”

So we talked about the soul, and as theologians have put together over the centuries, our best idea of this very real but invisible part of who we are is, besides the fact that it is the actual location of our being, you could say it’s the address of our being. God always knows where to find us based upon our soul. But in the interchanging part, you have your affections or emotions, you have your rational, your intellect, and then you have what I would call the sum total of those two things, which would be your willpower or your will, your volitional will.

I don’t know about you, but I think what we’re doing is reading a story here about things that I’ve done in my past, where I’ve made a decision out of affection, out of emotion, to regret it. And I think I’ve been learning in life that being very self-aware of my emotional state is important. To practice emotional intelligence, keep my mouth shut when it should be shut, saying something with courage when I should say something, doing or not doing. We can go on and on with the examples, but a lot of the success or failure of that has to do with my emotional state and paying attention to my emotional state.

Physical Weakness and Spiritual Implications

Now, I’m not judging Esau too harshly because I wonder how long he was out there. I’m just guessing. He probably took some bread with him, and he might have been gone for a week. He might have been gone for several days. I guarantee you he didn’t take his rifle. He didn’t have one, right? It had to be bow and arrow, and maybe a club to jump on a wild boar, a knife, who knows?

But nonetheless, there it is, an emotional– Because his body could have withstood more, but your body is still extremely important to the soul. Otherwise, there’d be no need for the resurrection. So we know that the body has power to also influence the soul, and vice versa.

Those are my thoughts on that.

Failure, Vulnerability, and Missed Responsibility

Winston: You said something that made me think when you were describing what Esau was actually doing. It says the boys grew up, and Esau became a skillful hunter. So he was out there. Obviously, he didn’t get what he needed. He didn’t do what he set out to do. So just that thought, on the heel of a potential failure, he’s really susceptible to making a poor decision.

Jim: Because dad’s going to be disappointed because they’re having lentil stew.

Winston: Where was the meat? He was responsible–

Jim: I didn’t think about that extra piece there, Winston. So dad is salivating, waiting for his champion son, his “favorite” son, and he comes home empty-handed. And we all know already that Jacob—yeah, okay, that’s good.

Leveraging Weakness and the Beginning of Conflict

Gary: It kind of reminds me, I hadn’t thought about it either, from a standpoint of Jacob using Esau’s weakness against him. And from football or strategy or whatever, those are the kind of things you want to do. But there’s something that really feels more evil when you take the natural disposition of someone and leverage it for your own gain.

We were talking in Sunday school about desire and things that tempt us and all that. And I said, “So what is it that tempts you?” And I said, “If you’re a teenage boy, what tempts a teenage boy?” And the girls immediately talked up. They like to see a little more skin. And they know that.

You can use those things against the way God has made us. Men are visual. I don’t mean to make this as we’re the guilty ones. There’s plenty of blame to go around here. But there’s something particularly evil that, Jim, if I know you’re addicted to ice cream and I keep putting it in front of you–

Jim: I am.

Gary: You get my point?

Jim: That’s true.

Gary: They could do exactly what he was doing.

Rival Nations and the Art of War

Jim: The stumbling block. Well, didn’t we just read up here the Lord told Rebekah that—oh yeah, here we go—in verse 23, the sons in your womb will become two nations. From the very beginning, the two nations will be rivals. Well, the whole art of war is when you’re weak to look strong and when you’re strong to look weak. The art of war is based on deception. So what you’re massaging out of this, Gary, is that here the war has begun.

Gary: And Jacob’s using his natural–

Jim: Esau lost.

Gary: He’s good at this.

Jim: He’s the quiet one. Always–

Gary: Mother supports him. We’ll see that coming up. She whispers in his ear.

Jim: Haven’t you been warned to watch out for the quiet ones?

Destiny, Trust, and Responsibility

Winston: To your point, Jim, their destiny is already set in that verse 23, “One people will be stronger than the other.” So there’s already a predestined responsibility for Jacob based off of his design. So are we seeing reasons why one is going to be responsible for what they will be responsible for and why one wouldn’t be? Esau couldn’t even be trusted with his own birthright. Why would he be trusted with the nation?

Gary: That’s a good point.

Jim: He can’t be. He’s going to trade it the minute he feels like he needs to.

Concluding Thoughts

Well, what a good introduction to the life of Jacob. That is where we’re going to spend, like I said, our next six or seven chapters before we’re introduced to what I would call the main latter character of the book of Genesis, the life of Joseph.

Good seeing you guys today. Thank you so much for sharing Genesis 25 with me. I’ll see you in Genesis 26.

Outro

Winston: Thanks for spending part of your day with us on the Today Count Show. If today’s conversation encouraged you, challenged you, or helped you grow, share it with someone in your circle because we’re better when we grow together. And be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and stay connected with us on Instagram, YouTube, LinkedIn, and Facebook. And remember, real change doesn’t happen someday, it happens today. Until next time, keep showing up, keep building, keep making today count.

—————————–