Episode 172: If You’re Too Busy to Lead Well… This Is For You!

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Today Counts Show Episode 172

Preview

Jim Piper Jr: I think everybody kind of searches for that. I think what my wife and I learned was that I’ve got this thing that I want to do. Why does that burn in my belly so much? What if I can’t support my family? What if it doesn’t– Mentors are good only for the path that they have taken. If you can’t find a mentor, that fits your path, that sounds like–

Thanks to our Supporters

Winston Harris: Hey, before we jump into today’s episode, we want to thank all our donors and supporters who make The Today Counts Show possible. It’s through your generosity that we’re able to shape leaders through this content and this podcast. Be sure to like, subscribe, and follow wherever you find yourself coming across this content. Alright, let’s get to the podcast.

Introduction

Winston Harris: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Today Counts Show. My name is Winston. I will be your host today. I have with me as always the man, the myth, the legend, Jim Piper.

Jim Piper Jr: Do that again.

Winston Harris: Always. Well, you can’t not. I feel like that’s kind of our thing. I don’t know. How you doing today, Jim?

Jim Piper Jr: I’m doing well.

Winston Harris: I’m good. Glad to have you. And then we got no stranger to the podcast because you got one under your belt. So now you’re a pro but–

Greyson Hanna: I sure do.

Winston Harris: Greyson Hanna.

Greyson Hanna: A friend of the show.

Winston Harris: What’s going on?

Greyson Hanna: Always happy to be here. Thanks guys.

Recap: Living with Purpose

Winston Harris: Come on. Come on. Last time we were all together, we had the opportunity to talk about living with purpose. Living with purpose. Jim, you gave us this kind of just framework of understanding, how do we live with intentionality?  A lot of us who are watching, listening, us in the room here, we’re constantly asking ourselves how do we get better? How do we manage not just our time, but our life better?

We want to be more effective. We got parents listening, we got business leaders listening. And we have teachers. We have pastors, all kinds of people. Sometimes it feels like, man, there’s not enough time in the day for all of the things that we are responsible for. At the end of the day, we just want to get better. We want to be good stewards of what has been entrusted to us. We’re to stay in this vein. If you need to check out that first part of this conversation, that link should be available in the show notes. You can jump on the Today Count Show on YouTube or wherever you stream podcasts to catch that previous episode as well.

Rapid Fire Q&A on Life and Leadership Tension

We’re going to continue this conversation today and kind of almost rapid fire Q&A with Jim and just kind of. Let them field some of the questions that are kind of born, if we’re being honest, just out of at least for me, Greyson, I don’t know about you, but just life tension. Like, “Man, how do I manage the responsibilities and the things that are going on?” There’s going to be a thematic answer to what we’re talking about.

The Purpose of a Playbook

Jim, can you just maybe refresh our memory about this thing called a playbook?

Jim Piper Jr: Playbook? Yeah. Playbook, it was something that I created it with the help of people like Stephen Covey, other business leaders who created a path to follow. Just like your clothes and Greyson’s clothes, I like your clothes, but they may not fit me exactly right. So I search for clothes that fit me well. In the process of building a playbook that works for me, a strategic plan, a path for my life, I found that there are hundreds, thousands of people who are really after the same same thing.

So it’s really what I’ve been doing for the last 20 years is walking beside leaders who are trying to squeeze every minute out of every day that might make some people feel tense. But that’s actually not what it is. That’s really not the idea squeezing every minute out of every day, as much as being purposeful. Yeah. So You know, if I’m sitting on a beach for an hour doing nothing and that’s purposeful, then that’s a good thing.

The Pressure to Prove Yourself

Winston Harris: We kind of talked about that a little bit in the previous episode. I kind of want to hang out there. Can you talk to us about the type of person that you have to be to see time in that way? Because I feel like once again, especially as a young leader, I don’t know, if it’s feeling like I have to to prove something and I have to make every second count.

That turns into activity and not even purposeful activity. It’s just activity for the sake of activity to say that or feel like I’m doing something valuable. But with the playbook in mind, how do we get to a place where we’re even able to rest intentionally?

Understanding the Type A Personality

Jim Piper Jr: Yeah. Well, everybody’s wired just a little bit differently. I think a lot of us share the same core principles. If we don’t, we should because most of the core principles that I’ve discovered in life come from creation. They speak to all of us. And so we have a conversation with those principles to try to navigate our lives.

I for one, I guess, the words to describe me that kind of pushed me in this direction of trying to get my ducks in a row, so to speak, is I found out that I was very much a type A person. I don’t know if we use that terminology as much as we used to 20, 30 years ago, but it’s basically hyperactivity, just always feel like you got to do something, you got to be getting something done. It’s probably attached to your value somehow, you probably need to get some counseling to get that to get that straightened out. If you’re not achieving or not achieving as much as you want, but you’re on the go, kind of a life on adrenaline maybe.

From Activity to Intention

So that’s one example. of, and then I would think the other thing that is true for many type A folks, not all, but many, is that we have a history of not finishing what we started, because as we got into it a little more, we’re going, “Why am I doing this anyway?” So we didn’t put enough time on the front end, which is all playbook conversation. So in life you can’t have it all. But you can sure have a lot, especially the stuff that you really want to have if you know how to say no to things as well.

When Good Intentions Outpace Capacity

Winston Harris: That’s really good. Greyson, can you talk to a time, whether past or even current tension where maybe you didn’t do your due diligence on the front end and you committed to something and then you get into it is Jim saying and you’re like, I don’t even know why I committed to this or maybe just not finishing well.

Greyson Hanna: Oh, yeah. I got an endless list. But right off the bat, I think about, you we all go to church together and our small group communities. I have a tendency to have these lofty goals, right? I want to do good in the community, want to build great friendships, want to be a great husband. And another thing on that list is I want to spiritually grow and I wanted to take that next step and lead small groups.

Jim Piper:  And you want to be physically fit.

Greyson Hanna: Be physically fit. Get great sleep.

Winston Harris: Make a bunch of money. Save the world.

Greyson Hanna: Yeah. And so I had committed to lead some small groups at a time where I had a bunch of other things going on, which at the end of the day, I told myself, just stop making excuses if it’s important to do it, but also didn’t stop to pause and realize the season I was in. Then I realized that I was doing everything kind of 50%. Then I felt horrible about that. This playbook, it’s just a perfect example of something that I wish I would have had. I still need to go actually make mine, but I’m excited to learn how to do that effectively. ‘Cause it’s not going to be the last time that I have these lofty goals that I want to do.

The Importance of Front-End Due Diligence

Winston Harris: Jim, give us a snapshot of what does that work on the front and kind of even look like before we overcommit to something and not finishing well.

Evaluating Your Life: The Good, Bad, and Ugly

Jim Piper:  Yeah, I mean without using all my you know, digits and widgets and and phrases I think that a lot of truth for most people is that, do we even spend enough time in our lives just evaluating our lives? I call it the good, bad and ugly, just sit down on a regular basis. I’m not thinking about once in your life, but on a regular basis. What’s the good in my life?

Greyson Hanna: What would you say is regular basis?

Finding Your Rhythm: Quarterly or Crisis Mode?

Jim Piper: No, it’s a great question. It probably changes to the degree of frustration that I might be in, because I don’t know that if your life is like out of control, you can’t sit down for an hour and get it all figured out. But you got to start. I don’t know that I go through the good, bad and ugly every month, but I certainly go through it quarterly. Even though my habits on my playbook tell me to sit down and do it quarterly, I’ve been doing it for so long that I can–

It’s kind of like a haircut. I don’t know how often you guys get a haircut. But I can tell three weeks in, it’s time. I can just tell. And sure enough, I’ll look at the calendar, I’ll go dog gonnit. Two days over three weeks or two days short of three weeks. It’s there. So now for me, it’s just like there’s this voice that says, “All right, sit down. Take a look at your course. Are you still heading in the right direction?”

And there’s all kinds of questions you can ask yourself besides the good, bad and ugly that maybe we’ll get into. But yeah, so for me, it’s at least quarterly. But if somebody is in crisis, I mean, it might be a daily thing that they’re working on it daily for a half hour a time depending on how crazy their life is and what they’re trying to do.

Why Gratitude and Clarity Matter

But the reason why I say good, bad and ugly is because one of the other contributing factors to a life out of control that is not effective is a lack of gratitude, where we don’t sit and really think about all the blessings that we have. When we do that, a lot of times it takes some of that misguided ah ambition. I mean, ambition is a good thing. But there is misguided ambition. Sometimes that comes from insecurity. This isn’t a therapy session, but a lot of times it can come out of therapy while you’re chasing whatever success is.

And then the bad, there’s just three extremes here, the bad might be not so good. Or maybe I’m just too busy. That could be bad. So it’s not like you’re going to fight for your life with cancer. And then ugly might be men, this something’s got to stop. You know, this is going to kill me, literally or whatever or kill my relationship or or whatever it is at some point.

Building Rhythms of Self-Evaluation

Greyson Hanna: As you were talking, I was just thinking about how any master of their craft, things just start to come natural. The muscle memory, instinct. But that’s never the case right away. It requires intentionality and good work ethic and proper steps to be taken. So going through the good, bad and ugly exercise, what does that look like for someone that’s never done it before to get that rhythm going? Like practically, is it blocking off a day and going out doing like some sort of retreat by yourself? Or I guess it might just depend on where you feel the most introspective. What does that look like?

The Importance of Slowing Down

Jim Piper: Yeah, I’m learning a lot just working with leaders and. I’ve learned to get a lot more confident about direction and working with somebody versus fishing. A lot of times I go fishing. I try to understand who you are and what have you. But I have noticed over the last 20 years, there is a consistent thing, practice that I really am a bit forceful in and asking people to do.

So for example, I took on three new clients just this last couple weeks. The first thing I noticed is how computer driven we all are. We take notes in our phone, we take notes in our computers. We all know the benefit of that. There’s a lot of benefit. But one thing that slows you down is when you have to actually pull out a pen or a pencil. And so there’s certain mechanics that will slow you down.

The laptop doesn’t slow me down. The laptop speeds me up. Sometimes, and again, it’s amazing what it does. I’m not a techie, but I use technical tools for sure in areas other than my personhood. My personhood is so important. So anyway, I asked all three of these guys what their habits were, and none of them mentioned journaling, right? I asked all three of them, “Would you be willing to buy a journal? And if you don’t use it for anything else, you use it for our conversations, things that you want to write down, write down. Things I will ask you to write down, I’m going to ask you to draw all kinds of different diagrams,” and what have you.

Anxiety, Penmanship, and the Need for Stillness

The thing that I have to be careful with is, is not every client is wired the same. Some are very ashamed of their penmanship. I even talk about that a lot of their penmanship problems is not for everybody, but a lot is the speed in which they write. Their anxiety, the studies will show you this. Their anxiety is so high that they can’t write fast enough and so they’re inconsistent.

They’ll slant left, they’ll slant right, they’ll right up straight up and down. Sometimes it’s print, sometimes it’s cursive, depending on how old they are. Some don’t even know how to write cursive. And then some struggle with spelling, right? It’s just not their thing. So I recognize that there are some of those obstacles. But what I usually do, Greyson, I usually work on everybody slowing down.

How’s that cliche go? Go slow to go fast? Is that how it goes? You’ve heard that?

Winston Harris: I haven’t heard that.

Jim Piper: Yeah, go slow to go fast, I think it is. It’s kind of like a golf swing. They say, go slow to go smooth and go smooth to go fast. When you skip those steps, then the wrestler in me takes over. with a golf club in my hand and that is an ugly swing, right? And the baseball player in me who takes a golf swing as if it were a baseball bat is not as ugly as a wrestler swing, but it’s still ugly. And so you know, the principle is there.

Journaling and Mission Statements as Grounding Tools

It’s really about slowing down and you know, retreats. I don’t know, I would say that some people don’t even know how to do a retreat, they wouldn’t know what to do with themselves. So what I try to do is I try to say another– Then the first thing I get them to do with their new journal, once I see it, then I say, “Okay, I want you to write a mission statement.” I don’t talk about purpose statements yet or anything like that.

I take one step at a time, write a mission. It’s usually job related because they’re moving– Even though I recommend that we start with a personal playbook, almost everybody wants to fire me right away because they want to get involved in their work. Thus the problem. So sometimes I feel like I almost have to give them a pill and allow them to do that a little bit. And so the way I give myself time to get them back into the personal playbook is I say, “All right, write a mission statement for your role in your company.”

Then I talk about what that looks like. Because a mission statement is not a sexy statement. It says like the one that I read. I think it was today or yesterday. His first two words in his mission statement was about bringing growth to the company. And then the last part of his mission statement was his how. By and he had, I think, four things that he was going to concentrate to do that.

Time Management and the Reality Check of a Calendar

It was written pretty well. And I said, “Okay, that’s the mission statement. Now, how are you going to block time? Because that’s your quadrant two. When you write a mission statement, you have just identified your quadrant two. Mystery solved. Now, show me your calendar.” “Oh, well, why do I got to show you?” “You wrote a mission statement. Where’s the evidence that you’ve invested that time in that?” He goes, “Boy, I don’t think I want to show you that.” I go, “Okay.”

What I’m saying, Greyson is that I usually get their attention to where they’ll go, “Oh, this is why we need to work on the personal side. You know, this is why we need to slow down.” So the first thing I’m trying to do is exactly your question. Where can I help this person slow down? I’m looking for any spot any place, anything. I mean, take for example, what I sometimes do that after a while my spirit knows, my spirit says stop it.

The Trap of Compounding Tasks

I’m always trying to parallel things. I’m trying to squeeze every task of every moment. So even when I go for a run, do I listen to music? No, that’s a waste of time. I’m not gonna listen to music. I am gonna listen to a podcast. I’m gonna listen to something that will teach me about something.

Winston Harris: Compound activities.

Jim Piper: Yeah, exactly. When I get done with that run, I will say this, “Wow, that run went by really fast. I forgot about that.” So that’s a good side of it because I was concentrating something else. But for some reason, I don’t feel like I’m getting that benefit of blowing out the carbon, so to speak where I’m looking at the oak trees, I’m feeling the breeze. I’m struggling a little bit. I had to work through that struggle. There’s a lot of benefits.

I’m not saying that I go silent every time I run because that’s not true. Sometimes I do listen to music. Sometimes I listen to podcasts, but I have learned that one of the ways I slow down is if you go for a run, dang it, go for a run and do that and that alone.

Winston Harris: Presence.

The Need for Presence and Margin

Jim Piper: Presence.

Winston Harris: Being present.

Jim Piper: Because I’m already anxious. Because on my to do list for the day is to listen to that podcast, but I also got to exercise and also got to be somewhere by such a time. So what I got to do is like, you’re–

Greyson Hanna: You’re speaking to me right now because I try to work out in the morning, we have a home gym. So wake up, go out there. I just start looking at my calendar of– Because I’m very client facing, so I’m looking at who I’m meeting with and I started thinking about what I have to do to prepare. How do you avoid that?

The Illusion of Constant Activity as Progress

Winston Harris: Remind us of what you do again.

Greyson Hanna: Financial advising. I’m a financial advisor.

Jim Piper: You’re building your book of business, right?

Greyson Hanna: Yeah. I’m not in coasting mode. Something else I was thinking about as you were talking was just inherently our society now my generation, we view action as progress. And that’s not always true.

Jim Piper: That’s true. I think that’s what we’re learning. Because the whole time management thing has gotten to such a place where we’re cutting every hour in the 15 minute sections. If you work for certain high strong corporations, they’ll actually encourage you to do time audits, which I do as well. But they look at every 15 minutes. If you take an hour to meet with a colleague, they’re thinking you could probably done that in 15 minutes. That might be true. Do you see where I’m going? We just keep push and press and pressing.

D-Day, Burnout, and the Danger of Overload

I’ll give you another example, Greyson. How many times do you go from one point to the next with even wondering whether you have taken a breath? So sometimes what I do is I say, look, you are forbidden to have an appointment that ends at two and your next appointment starting at two. What you need to do is you have to throw that 15 minute thing in there again, you got at least have 15 minutes.

But it’s not to catch up in the email, the text, it’s to get up and to walk around the building, say hi to a few people. Go get a soda, go get a water, whatever you’re to do and just give yourself a break. Back to what you said Winston, presence. ‘Cause you know, just changing the channel and I catch myself doing that, particularly when it comes to D-Day.

I don’t know what your guys’s D-Day is, but you know, I have a D-Day meaning if everything doesn’t get done that I had hoped to get done this week today, cause tomorrow I’m supposed to have a day off and I have a wife that holds me really accountable to that. So D-Day would be the day before that. It could possibly be a 12 hour day, 14 hour day. And then by the time I get to my day off, I’m so stinking exhausted and stressed out that I’m on adrenaline.

What do I remember when I wake up? What I forgot to do. It haunts me and chases me. So then I find myself hiding from my wife to get that thing done. This is craziness. It’s craziness.

Mission Statement vs. Purpose Statement

Winston Harris: I want to tag back to something you kind of mentioned in passing, but can you clarify to us the difference between a mission statement and a purpose statement?

Jim Piper:  Absolutely. And that’s a great question. For example, let’s go back to the the example I gave earlier. Most of the leaders that I work with, once I kind of go over the Tinker toy process, the building blocks of a mission statement, very rarely does someone submit one to me and I go home. This is horrid. So it tells me that most people are very intellectual, they understand it, they get it, they, and they’re going to show it to me. There’s some accountability there, right? So they’re, they’re working on it. I mean, some are better than others.

Let me answer it broadly and then specifically. Broadly, those are two different words, mission and purpose. And they’re not synonyms. They might be cousins, but I think they’re distance cousins. And the example that I use here in this studio, I see a banner for the Coast Guard, I see a banner for the United States Air Force, I see one for the United States Navy.

When you ask our military what their purpose is, they’ll say something like, “Protect our borders and our Constitution.” Something like that, that’ll that’ll be their purpose. Ask them how many missions they have. And they will look at you and I say, “It’s innumerable. We are in all kinds of missions all over the world.” Missions begin, and they end. Okay? That’s the that’s the broad definition.

Purpose is Lifelong, Missions Are Specific

So the purpose is ongoing for as long as you exist. I liken missions to goals, to be frank. Now you can have a mission and then have goals underneath that, supporting that. But even that gets messy and confusing. And maybe we can talk about that later. A purpose is why you’re alive. I’m gonna let that sink in for a minute. It’s why you’re alive. You can have different language for it.

My personal mission is what I think a lot of believers in Christ is, in two words, it’s following Christ. That’s my personal mission. And then my mission statement is following, knowing Christ, following Christ, becoming like him and reproducing his life and others. That’s my personal mission statement. It’s a found for my life, but my purpose statement is– What I do is I have this foundational purpose statement, but then I have this, what I would call professional purpose statement, which is shaping leaders.

I thought about it, where could I not be involved in shaping leaders? Because I’m just a nut when it comes to shaping leaders. I study coaches who win and they get they get fired, and they go to another organization and they win. They take a rebuilding program and they win. You don’t hear from them for a few years, because they’re rebuilding, but all of a they come out and they’re winning again. That’s amazing to me. I think about executives who win. I think about some of the friends that I have and they just win.

Shaping Leaders as a Calling and a Lens

So what I do is when I think about it’s just true, I just love leadership. It doesn’t mean I’m the best leader in the world, but it means I love leadership.

Winston Harris: It’s good.

Jim Piper: I love it and shaping leader. And so I really like working with people who are trying to make a difference. That’s kind of some of the the wiser and here’s my here’s my theory. I want to reach thousands of people. I do. I’ll admit that to you. I want to influence thousand a people. But I’ve never bought into the addition thing. I’ve never bought into how can I have 5 million followers? I don’t even know what that looks like. Why do they follow me? Because of a cool YouTube deal that went on? Are they really followers? Are they?

But I bet you I have a pretty good chance of influencing in a significant way 500 leaders. And if not 500 leaders, maybe 250. If not 250, maybe 100. And if not 100, maybe 50. If not 50, maybe 10. I believe that leaders are the kings and queens of the world and they’re the ones that have influence on others. So I’ve always kind of viewed it in a multiplying way if that makes sense.

So I get up thinking about leadership and and yeah, I beat myself up a lot because I’m a human being just like you guys are. And so a lot of times, my report card doesn’t look so great. Especially when you go self awareness, self leadership, leading others, leading healthy organizations. Those are the four areas of concentration that that I work on.

Finding Your Purpose: Passion, Process, and Mentorship

Jim Piper: You kind of touched on the idea of that’s what you love to do, attached to your purpose statement. Maybe talking to somebody listening, trying to wrestle down their purpose statement. Is that a symptom or is that a breadcrumb? Like, I love this thing. Is that where they start? Like where would they even?

Jim Piper: I don’t know. I think everybody arrives at it differently. And I think some people, because of their childhood or for whatever reason, really want to make a lot of money. And so for them, it doesn’t really matter. I mean, assuming honestly, they want to make a lot of money, honestly, it doesn’t really matter whether they buy boring businesses or whether they want to be a Wall Street tycoon or whether they want to be a corporate leader. A lot of them don’t really care so much about the mode. They care about the goal of that.

And then you have those who are entrepreneurs who the thought of going into a stuffy office and working just drives them crazy. I think everybody kind of searches for that. I think what my wife and I learned in our late 20s was that I’ve got this thing that I want to do. Why does that burn in my belly so much? And what if it doesn’t pay? What if I can’t support my family?

Mentors, Calling, and Living Out Your Purpose

Of course mentors are good only for what only for the path that they have taken. And so if you can’t find a mentor that fits your path that sounds like trouble. It could be it could be trouble. Because but I had mentors who were for what I was doing and mentors that were against what I was doing. But in the long run, what we decided is that we were going to do what we really believe we were here to do. And then we weren’t going to be poor. We were going to ah use our entrepreneurial gifts to do what we can, but that wasn’t our focus.

That was almost like, it’s like Paul’s tent making. For those who aren’t familiar, the Apostle Paul, the first church planter, yes, he took up some offerings here and there. But for the most part, he made it on his own. I think that’s a great question. I don’t know that there’s a formula. People try to do seminars and sell tickets so that you can figure it figure that out. I’m a little cynical. I’m cynical and a lot of but I think leadership is a dialogue. I think I think leadership has done best in community. It’s done best in encouraging one another.

Figuring it out can be really frustrating if you think you got to have it down pat, or it can be a journey that you enjoy. I think I think that though there’s been times where I’ve been frustrated, for the most part, I really like the idea, “You know, I tried that. Nope, let’s try this.” And I’ve been okay with that.

The Dynamic Nature of the Playbook

Greyson Hanna: Something that just keeps popping up in my head, I’m kind of an over analyzer on a lot of things. And so I want to normalize like the process of the playbook. Cause to me, in my mind, I know it’s not something that you just set it and it’s set in stone. It is kind of a living document.

Jim Piper: It’s dynamic.

Greyson Hanna: But I want to know like how nor how regular is it acceptable for it to be reviewed? Obviously not like changing every week or every month, but there’s different stages of life and stuff. I think it’s probably hard, I know for me, but probably for a lot of people watching or listening to put it down on paper with the thought that like, “This is it. It needs to be perfect.” That’s the side of the table I always sit on.

Winston Harris: So how often reviewed, but I guess also how often can we adjust it? Because you don’t want to adjust it every day.

Jim Piper: Let’s talk about the components, at least of what I’ve designed, and then then go into that. I’m not going to give it to you in order, I’m going to give it to you in viewing order. I worked with some psychologists who understand how the brain works and how I even put it together on paper, but on the top left is a vision statement. It’s very short, a vision statement. Underneath the vision statement are values. I have spots for no more than five.

Then underneath the value statement, I have my purpose statement if it is a personal playbook. Because there’s a personal playbook, a professional playbook, and a team playbook. Then if I didn’t already say it, there are the two two keywords which is the shortened version of the purpose statement or mission statement. Like I said before in my case, shaping leaders.

Components and Structure of the Playbook

That’s the top half on the left side on the right side is what I call KPAs, key performance areas. That’s the subject matter and I give up to five of those and then there’s a goal statement underneath each of those and then goal steps underneath each of those. There’s five of those. So that concludes the top half. The bottom half is a list of– There’s a section there that kind of lists my personality type and my strengths.

Then there is on the left side, areas of character that I think I need to to rely on work on in this season of my life. And then to the right of that is what I call habits. Those are things that are broken down daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, semi annual and annually.

I look at or I tell people I look at or I tell myself I look at and review the playbooks every week. Do I actually do that every week? I would say out of 52 weeks, probably 40 times just to give you an example. There’s a lot of reasons for that. Some of some of the reasons aren’t good because I’m a human being. But I find it’s kind of like a lot of people who are so called experts in your physical health they, and you’re trying to lose weight as an example, which for me is always a battle now that I’m 65. If I look at a carbohydrate, it sticks to me and multiplies.

Reviewing the Playbook and Making Adjustments

They’ll say weigh once a week, that doesn’t work for me. I have to weigh every day. I weigh every day and yes, I go through an emotional roller coaster. But it’s better for me to do that and be off a half a pound or even maybe a full pound. Because then I can make it’s short accounts and I can make immediate adjustments. I am capable of thinking I did okay this week and gain five pounds in one week.

Now that is a punch in the gut because I know how hard it is. for me to get that off. So with this, so that same analogy, I am pretty regular at looking at my playbooks. But here’s why Greyson, because I can’t do my calendar without looking at my playbook. Because my playbook informs my calendar, my calendar informs my daily activities. And that’s how I can be stubborn against a noisy world that wants to interrupt me and take their own agenda and force it on my own.

Why Playbooks Require Alignment and Intentionality

That sounds arrogant, but but hold on. I have met with God about this playbook. have met with my family and my significant others about this playbook. This is our general agreement as to our approach. And of course, that playbook involves serving others. It involves caring for the customer. It involves all of those things. Now, does that mean that I am not respond that I won’t respond to friends, colleagues, family, emergencies, of course not. But those who work closely with me… I’m not gonna go into detail, but they get it.

Addressing Overcommitment and Relational Dynamics

Winston Harris: If I can tag in real quick, some of what you’re saying makes me think about the person who’s not currently using this, who needs it, and maybe they find themselves almost held hostage to all of the relationships, all the responsibilities that they feel like they have to respond to. I think it’s a real thing. People trying to reconcile how do I stay loyal, maybe as a word, how do I stay loyal to people that have “been loyal” to me.

But that ends up with diminishing returns because you’ve not taken care of yourself, not led yourself. So your desire is to actually serve people well, but you can only serve people at the level that you’ve taken care of yourself. So how does the playbook help the person who is almost stuck just reacting to the responsibilities of those around them? Maybe even specifically just just “trying to be a good person” and helping them.

Systemic Problems and Overloaded Lives

Jim Piper: It’s super frustrating because most problems are systemic in nature. They’re not good guy, bad guy kind of thing. A lot of organizations have addiction to meetings. And the reason why is because they still haven’t figured out how to do meetings. I think that’s where Patrick Lencioni’s work about all the different types of meetings and how to put those together. And then of course you mentioned family, then there’s family expectations on top of that.

Then of course, we are our own worst enemy. You know, we have to throw ourselves into that pot of stew. So you know, whatever working environment we’re in, we’re in it. We’re part of that system. Whatever family environment we’re in, we’re in it. And then there’s us. Then there’s our goals and dreams. And then there’s taking care of us, everything you just said. It really is tough.

Why the Playbook Works Best at the Leadership Level

That’s why most of my work is really with people who either are in a position where if they want to change their behavior, they can. Usually in the corporate world, if you’re familiar with these terms, anybody from a director up, maybe a manager, but a lot of times managers are little too lower elevation to really have that kind of swagger, they’re still kind of developing the task orientation, the the trust and getting stuff done, getting stuff done with their two or three team members what have you.

But when someone gets promoted to a director level VP and up, they’re kind of expected to run their organization. However, the reason why they struggle is because they’ve never learned how to do it. Because they were a contributor, and then they got promoted to a manager. Then all of a sudden, the manager to a director is a big leap. The leap from a director to a VP is a really big leap because it goes completely into abstract. A VP’s role is 80% abstract. Generally speaking, 20% of the systems in there.

Navigating Trapped Systems and the Role of a Personal Playbook

Entrepreneurs, usually the problem there is them. You know, they are usually the problem. Yes, they have customers, but they’re not backing away from it. Those in middle management– You bring up a really good point. So I think what I’d do when somebody who feels like they’re trapped in that kind of a world is I’d say, “You’ll be surprised what your personal playbook can do. So you do your job. When you and I talk, just try to cope with your job. And don’t bring your job into our conversation. Let’s talk about your personal playbook.”

Because in that process, there’s revelations that occur. There’s courage that’s given there’s insight that’s given. Oh, there’s a promotion that that happens and those things happen.

The Challenge of Boundaries and Overcommitment

Even though my playbook looks nice and neat and you guys are looking at and you say is this life is this life really like that? 75% it is? Did it get there overnight? No, it has been a fight. It’s a fight and still fight.

It’s still fight because every organization that I get involved with, they typically agree to a pound of your flesh. But next thing you know, you got 10 pounds missing. That whole boundary thing is really tough. You got to be forthright, communicate, communicate, communicate, communicate. “I would really love to do this to do this well. I’m going to have to–”

The more you keep it to yourself, the more you stuff, the more the ugly stuff starts developing inside of you. Then when that finally comes out, people are going to say, “What happened? What happened to that guy?” He just flipped a switch. He seemed like a normal guy, healthy, then boom, he blew up. What happened? So I mean, I just recognize that it is a difficult process. And thus, that is why it’s worth beginning the journey of it.

The Pressure of Love and Expectations

I mean, I was hoping I was gonna have grandkids, but my seven grandkids, I love them to death. They are all very demanding. They think they’re the boss of me. To be honest, I don’t want to let them down. So you know, what is that psychology? I don’t know, I need to lay on the couch and talk about it probably. So it never ends is my point. It never ends. If you throw in the towel of trying to live a more effective life now because you think some magical way in 10 years, it’ll come, it’s not gonna come.

Winston Harris: That is discouraging. It’s just not gonna happen. I’m just not gonna wave a magic wand and our life is gonna get more organized. I recently you heard this from the Christian perspective: many of us are praying for peace, but we’re trying to bypass the process of God’s order. And that God is a God of order. And so peace is the byproduct of order and intentionality.

We’re praying for the wrong thing. We’re praying for peace, but we’re not willing to engage in orderly approach to then experience peace or sustain it. And so think that’s kind of what we’re talking about, right? Getting things in order, getting things appropriately.

Recognizing Misalignment and the Need for Reprioritization

Back to the kind of the sensitivity that Jim spoke to earlier, the recognition that something is out of order. Greyson, where have you found there’s been a light flashing on the dashboard kind of telling you this needs to be reprioritized? What is that experience currently like? Where do you feel like you need additional support maybe that the playbook might be able to add value to that experience.

Life Feels Like Whack-a-Mole

Greyson Hanna: Well, I feel like right now my life is just a big game of whack-a-mole, honestly. Like there’s something over here. Oh hit that one. Then something crops up over here and it’s getting faster and faster. Then right whenever I feel like I hit the last one, this thing comes out in the top right corner. Especially when it comes to relationships, real good about making time for my wife. And then it’s the family and friends aspect of it.

You know, I’ll kind of go through season where I’m real intentional with going to lunch with people, hanging out with friends. But then next thing you know, it’s been a month since I’ve talked to my parents. So then I’m like, “Shoot, I need to go spend time with my parents.” The next thing you know, I haven’t spent any time with Tess at home. It’s like I can get two of the three, but I can’t get three out of three. So that’s just kind of been a theme for me, which is why I’ve loved these conversations.

I really want to sit down and do the playbook. But again, analysis, paralysis, I want to do it right. So it’s encouraging to hear that it’s not something that is a tool that needs to be used exactly like that forever. It can be modified. But yeah, I’d say relationships is the big one for me.

Jim Piper: Yeah, I think most people feel that same way. I don’t think it happened– Well, it did kind of happen to me to going back to the Covey stuff because I was a follower of Covey. Everything in those days was done manually. You bought the expensive leather binder and all of that. How frustrating it was when I would do my values and then I go, “No these are my values.”

I mean, who knows how many stabs I– Which is really kind of scary because you’re going, “Man, what do you really value?” I think a lot of the work for us, this is really hard to say, but I think the work is eliminating. It’s the process of eliminating, eliminating, eliminating. Now, if you’re a catalytic individual like I am, an activator, no matter how self aware I am, lint just gets on me.

Your Playbook Becomes a Constitution

And about every nine to nine months to 18 months, I’m looking at this playbook and all of a sudden, I’m going, “This playbook is pregnant. This is stupid. This is not how you do a playbook.”

Now I’ve been rationalizing for that amount of time, adding more. So I have to cleanse again, cleanse again, cleanse again. Now my personal playbook rarely changes. So that’s the good news. It’s slowly but surely evolves into a constitution. I think we talked about that last time. And a constitution shouldn’t change much. But it takes a while to get it there. But once it’s there, now you got a foundation in which to build because you won’t betray it. So anything that you build on top of it, your professional playbook will be supported by something that is solid.

One of the things that we talked about, I think we talked about this last time, but when we talked about the person, people, place idea. That everything flows out of my person and overflows into my people, my relationships and then into my place, wherever I find myself in life. But one of the hard things to do about the people part is we just can’t be effective having these ideal relationships with X amount of people. Each of us has probably more capacity than others. There’s probably a variety of reasons that go into that. So we kind of have to figure out–

So if you take that people circle, and then you break it up by itself, and I’m making this up right now as I go. But if you were to break those down into say, three categories, your core people. And then the people that you want to be more than just cordial with, but you’re not going to have the same commitment to these. It sounds weird to have to do that. Doesn’t it? It seems like relationships should be more fluid than that. I don’t think you walk around telling, showing people which circle they’re in. But if you don’t know which circle they’re in-

Winston Harris: That’s good.

Relational Intelligence and Recognizing Capacity

Jim Piper: -and then you’re going to make decisions that are going to affect other people in the other circle in a way that it shouldn’t. And so your people priorities are out of order, because somehow you forgot that you have limited capacity.

Winston Harris: That’s really good. I’ve actually heard somebody frame it as, just like we talked about, emotional intelligence, relational intelligence. Like being able to basically put the appropriate weight and value on relationships. I know personally, in my playbook journey, my leadership journey, just self awareness journey, I’m learning my relational tank is small in the sense of, I don’t need much to fill that tank. But others maybe highly relational, have a large tank. And so need or capacity to have maybe another angle for it.

Just that variation in the nuance of being sensitive and aware, like what do I need? What do I require? Am I overextending myself because there’s this unspoken pressure, this weird expectation that I need to have X amount  of  people in my life or the other side of it: I don’t have enough people in my life and I’m doing that subconsciously. I think it is fluid in the sense of am I slowing down enough to recognize, “Okay, what is required of me? What do I need?” Then from there I’m able to in my playbook, map out, okay, let me be intentional with my relationships. And then we see that on our calendar. If I’m getting that correct.

Personal Experiences and Realignment in Relationships

Jim Piper: Yeah, several years ago, and I mean, several maybe, maybe a couple decades ago, I had a friend put me in my place, literally. I never really thought about relationships in the way we’re talking about them. That realization, because at that time Jim, my son and my daughter were still living with us at home there, middle school, high school, I think. I still had a lot of energy and so I just didn’t really give it much thought.

But I had this one friend who I like playing golf with. We had an affinity in golf. We’re both pastors. And so we had that affinity. He will call me quite often to do other things than just golf and I won’t go into them but I mean all kinds of stuff and I keep finding excuses to tell him not to go. One day he literally says to me, “You know Jim I think that I’m projecting upon you something that you don’t want so I’m going to put you in my golf friend section.” I went, “Am I being demoted?”

But what was funny is I was relieved when he said it because I love playing golf with him. But my life had more demands than two married dudes. I mean, I’m a married dude. Maybe I’m looking at it differently and I’ve got kids and a wife and they play ball. There’s other affinities that are going on. I think sometimes we just get too idealistic, or maybe we don’t spend enough time, whatever category it is and thinking, thinking through it. It’s probably about the best I can offer there other than this too. Maybe we shared this before.

The Three Categories of Relationships

Bill Hybl shared many years ago. For some reason, I got a lot of content in the late 1980s. That’s stuck. I don’t know why but I did. There was a series that they were doing that was literally about burnout, talking about burnout.

And Bill Hybls got up and he said, “There’s three kinds of relationships that you need to be aware of. This is how you lay them out.”

Neutral Relationships

He said, “There are neutral relationships. Let’s just call them friendship. Kind of give and take. Some days, you’re there for your friend. Someday, your friend is there for you. But a lot of times when you’re together, it’s not really about much. You’re lifting weights, you’re doing this, you’re doing that.” And he goes, “Everybody needs some of those.”

Filling Relationships

He says, “And then there are filling relationships.” He looked at us, he says, “I want to ask you right now, right down the people in your life that no matter who they are, when you’re around them, you just walk away a better person. You just know.” Boy that got me thinking, “Gosh, how many?” Then he also said to us, and if you don’t have anybody physically, at least go adopt them find their books, read them, let them speak to you.” Kind of give you that temporary thing.

Draining Relationships

And then he said, “The third category is draining relationships.” He said, “You go in with a good attitude, but somehow, some way by the time you leave that relationship, you are dead man in the water, you’re dead man walking, you’re exhausted, you’re just completely spent.” He looked at us and he said, “You all need a draining relationship.” And he goes, “Did you hear me? Ship, not ships. This is because it probably takes two or three filling relationships to cover for your draining relationship.”

I felt so free after he said that because one of my dysfunctions, and I have many, but one of my dysfunctions is my typical default is being a rescuer. If someone say, “Will you help me? What do you think about?” That’s probably part of a psychological pattern that I picked up in the family tree, but also probably is a catalytic thing that hits that spoke. I often found through the years finding myself committing to relationship that their view of it and my view of it was really different, because I am pretty good at saying, “All right, here’s the three things you need to do.” But I’m not the kind of guy says, “So let’s meet every Thursday morning for coffee to talk about it.”

No, I’m out. You know, those are the three things you’re supposed to do. If you want to call me in a month, let me know anything we can talk about that. But you know, I never had that. Language is important. Language helps. And even with clients, I have found not all my clients should be draining relationships. They shouldn’t be. And so I practice that as well and sometimes I fire myself, because I go for whatever reason. When I get done with this call, I’m done for three hours. That ain’t good.

How Language and Awareness Liberate Us

Winston Harris: It’s almost like to the point of language is powerful and it’s necessary that the playbook can give us this kind of language for our life in a way that, at least the way I’m synthesizing this is it gives us courage to cut. It gives us a framework for freedom. Like sometimes, we just get so inundated with, once again, our responsibilities, our expectations, the things we want to do, the things we have to do. And we don’t even, once again, kind of know where to start.

The playbook forces us into this process that gives us the courage after we come out of it to say, “All right, I know what is valuable. I know what is taking me in the direction I want to go versus what’s pulling me away from it.” Without this rallying point, without this place that almost can become this place of respice. “Man, I can’t wait to get to my playbook.” And just kind of just assess like, “Where am I? Where am I in the last nine months, 18 months? How did I pick up all this lint, if you will? How do these things accumulate?”

I would imagine, Jim, you could speak to it, but you learn more, not just about the logistics of your life, but you learn about yourself so much in the process of like, “Why do I keep letting that relationship come in? Why do I keep putting myself out there? What are my bents and my proclivities that keep taking me away from my mission and my purpose?” Am I right in saying that?

Addressing Deep-Seated Patterns and Leadership Pressure

Jim Piper: You’re getting into some really deep stuff. There’s a thing in psychology called father wound. My dad is here right now and he’s a great, great man. Been a great father. But we’re so delicate growing up, it’s the little things that can throw us off. I think for those of us who are Christians, we can get this Messiah complex. We’re unconscious about it, meaning that we think very idealistically. We say it in church all the time, “We are the hands and the feet of Jesus.”

Who’s going to stand up and argue with that? Right? That seems to make sense, right? Jesus told us to go and make disciples. So that seems to line up pretty well there. But somehow we take our eyes off of the bigger picture. And we look at this man called Jesus, who the Bible says that he was born of a virgin and he lived a sinless life and he was crucified and he was raised by God and then he ascended to heaven and he’s coming back. That’s what the Bible teaches about him.

Perfect Humanity and Healthy Leadership Boundaries

So I don’t know anybody else that has that resume. And yet he himself would run away to get space to pray to get his head on straight. This is perfect humanity, by the way. Perfect humanity. Even if he wasn’t tapping into his God nature and I don’t know how all that worked. But it’s pretty clear that most of his adult life, he lived in perfect humanity, even though he’s fully God, fully man. Yes, that’s what the Bible teaches.

Yet he worked mostly through three, and then 12. He didn’t have time for all of his family. And so guilt and shame is still very much alive is what I’m trying to say in us to where maybe there is a ploy for every leader to know all the answers. So those who are listening and you’re leader, we’re not just talking about ministry. You’re a leader and you feel the vibes that you should know the answers. And so you make guesses when you don’t know versus be able to say, “I don’t know.” You say yes when you really should say no. And “I can’t, I’m tired, I need to rest, I need to think.”

Making Space to Lead and Grow

If our bottom line motive is to serve the best we can, then I want to come back to a lot of this is eliminating so that what we do, we do really, really well. Not to a perfectionist point of view, because life is messy. And ministry is messy and leadership is messy. We got to drop the report card thing because that just radiates too much guilt and shame. But if we could put on the idea of learning, learning together, traveling together, make sure that–

Jonathan Moore said in a gathering this week that lions hang out with lions. Of all the things that he said about lead like a lion, I really resonated with that because I tend to see the needs around me and go to those needs and they they deplete me. And so when you’re depleted on the couch, not only are you not helping those people, but you don’t have the strength to go hang out with lions. Really reserving some of your time for yourself to hang out with lions. I thought that was a good point that he made.

I don’t know if I’m answering.

You Can’t Shortcut Clarity

Winston Harris: Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, it’s good stuff. I think the way that maybe we land the plane is getting so clear about your life, getting so clear about what matters that it becomes very clear about what doesn’t matter. We’re plagued in 2025 with the lack of clarity. Even in the church space, I hear people praying for “I want clarity.” The process it takes. to get clarity.

Clarity is not a destination. It’s not an instant gratification thing where I’m just going to wake up one day if I just pray really hard, if I just I just do “the right thing.” I buy the right ebook, I get the right– I follow the right influencer on social media, I’m going to get clarity– You can’t shortcut clarity.

Lose With Us – The Power of Presence and Process

Jim Piper: Can I make a comment on that before you before you land this sucker? I’m gonna make sure Greyson has time to say anything too. I watched a movie the other day. And it was really a bad movie. It was a true story. I’ll butcher the title if I try to remember it. Basically it was about soccer. The soccer coach had lost his way because he went through a personal tragedy. And he was assigned to some Podunk island in the middle of nowhere, and coaching these very poor soccer players.

Anyway, he gets into this argument with the guy who is let’s just call him the president of the soccer club. The coach who had a good reputation for being a winner, but over the last few years because of this tragedy, have been drinking too much, he just kind of lost his way, acting unbecoming Lee. And he says to the president, they’re about to go into this this this playoff game, or actually this game to qualify to go to anything that’s likened to a tournament. That’s how bad they were.

He says to the president, the coach says to the president, “Well, what if I lose?” And the president said something that just man, it just crushed my heart. He said, “Then lose with us.” Because he was still running. He was still running. He was still running.

Clarity Doesn’t Come from Angels – It Comes from Relationship

I think when we pray for clarity, basically that’s cover for send me an angel. I don’t think God is about sending angels for those of us who have faith. Yes, he has sent angels. But as I have read through the 66 books of the Bible and not very often, I do admit when I was seven or eight and 12 and 13 and maybe 15, I did pray for God to send me an angel. None came that I know of. It is possible that some came and I didn’t know. I don’t know.

But If you if you believe in this idealism that God is big enough to be small enough, and we can actually have a relationship with him, what I love about my mom and my dad, my brothers and my sister my blood family, is that no matter how high of a mountain I was on, or how low the valley was on, they were there. They were there. So when blood acts like it’s supposed to act in the long game, not always in the short game, but in the long game, you remember that.

God Enjoys the Journey—Are You?

I think our walk with God and seeking for clarity comes from that relationship, just seeking that relationship, believing that he’s with you in it, and he’s enjoying the journey. Are you enjoying the journey? Are you putting more pressure on yourself than you should? Now, granted, this playbook is no child’s play. It’s hard work. But you’re doing it because you do believe you’re made in the image and the likeness of God. And you know, like the stoics often said, the more you pursue God, the more God pursues you or the more you know yourself, the more you know, God, the more you know, God, the more you know yourself. So it’s all about relationship. It really is.

I can look at my playbook, you guys and say it may not be perfect, but I didn’t do this on my own. This a family matter, this is my faith matter. This is a relationship with God matter. And it’s really helped me too like with– Because I get down into it. A lot of times there’s rejection. There’s someone that says, “Yeah, they don’t want to do that.” And it’s tough.

Authenticity Is the Foundation of the Right Playbook

Greyson Hanna: I think as you kind of were landing that plane there. It all comes down to authenticity, right? If you’re going to create this playbook, you can’t just put the values and the mission and the goals that you kind of know successful people are aspiring for. It’s what are important to you. A lot of people probably don’t know because of all the reasons we’ve talked about, busyness and they just can’t stop to smell the roses.

And that’s step one. I think that a lot of that, a successful introspective look at what your vision, what your goals are, is going to be rooted in relationship with God. Then also making it a family matter, the significant others around you. I think everything we talked about today, as I was sitting here, hearing you close that out, it’s all rooted in the right playbook. It’s got to be an authentic playbook.

Authenticity and Focus in Your Playbook

Identifying the Main Mountain

Jim Piper: Greyson, can I suggest something for you? Just listening to you talk?

Greyson Hanna: Yeah, please.

Jim Piper: So I’ve been learning and I’m still learning how to do the playbooks better. I put myself in your shoes while you were talking and also why I listened to you last time. And I imagine what my playbook would have looked like 20 years ago with your agenda. I would tell you that that would have been the wrong way to do it. I did it wrong. What I would suggest to you is what makes the playbook work is that you bet you playbook on one main mountain that you’re trying to climb. Because I’ve heard at least two.

You’re building a book of business. And so that it’d probably be pretty easy to put together a smart goal for that. And you’re trying to get your MBA. You did mention more time with Tess, more time here, physical, all that, all that, all that. That’s noise all that’s noise. I don’t even know if I have all of your elements. But I would probably say to you that in your personal playbook, but I don’t know if your MBA is personal or professional. I don’t know if you’re doing it for personal reasons or if you’re doing it for professional reasons.

Choosing the Right Category and Focus

But I would probably have a talk with you and say, “Make a decision.” You might say, “Well, the answer is both,” and I’ll say, “No, no. Wrong answer.” That’s the only wrong answer. It needs to be for one or the other. Of course, it’s going to be 70/30 or 80/20. What I want to know is what’s 51% true or more. If you say and this is the psychological part that I’ve been learning and how the brain works. I’m talking about the mind. To me, the brain and the mind are two different things.

If you said that the MBA was professional in the long run, or if you did some soul searching and said, “It’s probably more for my confidence or da da da da, whether I continue to pursue this or not, then it’s personal, whatever. So in your personal playbook, you might have MBA. And on your professional playbook, you have a dollar amount that you’re looking for in your book of business by such and such a time. That’s a lot right there. That’s a lot.

Now, what about Tess? Did we just leave Tess in the, you know, “Sorry, Tess, I’ll come back to see you after the MBA and I get that book of business.” No, no, because the things that matter in your life are lined up to your values. When you look at either your vision statement or your values, and you cross over to the other side of your playbook, that’s where you’re practicing those values.

Practicing Values Through Goals and Habits

So if you have a value of family in some way, or form, however, you’re going to state it, and then your goal statement and your habits are going to reflect that. But it doesn’t mean that you’re, you’re such and such as a mountain that you’re trying to climb. That’s another way you take the pressure off you bring focus and intentionality in. Because if you’re pursuing the right goals, on the way to achieving that goal, many of these other things just happen. Because you’re reviewing the playbook and you’re putting them on the calendar.

Just to remind you guys, one of the really helpful things that I’ve learned is I– So the playbook– All right, I said all that to try to say this and almost forgot. The playbook isn’t about all that you want to accomplish. It’s not about everything that you do. The playbook is based upon seasons. Now I’m not necessarily talking about the personal because that sooner or later gets to a constitution. But particularly that professional playbook, it is what do you want to accomplish in this next season.

The Power of One Clear Objective

It’s about that. It’s about that one thing. But Jim, I want to accomplish for fine. Tell me the thing, THE thing you want to accomplish. That’s what your playbook is about. And you will accomplish it. But if you accomplish those other three things, you didn’t accomplish your number one, you’re not going to be happy. If you accomplish the number one, you might find that two of those dropped off and you go, “I didn’t even care about that. I didn’t know I had that.” And then the other ones rising up to be your next one. That’s just an example.

But I wanted to give you some real live kind of example. You don’t need to list everything that you’re chasing. Right? I mean, I’m chasing 150 pounds and it is buried in my personal playbook. But it is part of my rhythm. It is part of that. I don’t wake up every day and go, “All right. I’m gonna forsake everything else for this 150.” Now I could and that may not be the wrong answer. But I’m telling you on my personal playbook that is not what I’m chasing on my personal deal.

Writing a Book as a Focused Goal

So last year when I wrote Story, the book, that was my number one professional goal. Did I want to start the podcast? Yes. Did I want to build a studio? Yes. Did I want to do x amount with whatever the, yeah. I’m telling you, that’s not what I was chasing. What I was chasing was getting that book done. That’s what I was chasing. And then as I got smarter, I’m going, “Huh, this book can be used in coaching. This book can be used in podcasting.” So you just kind of learn as you go.

Winston Harris: Real life clarity, real time clarity.

Greyson Hanna: Yeah, good stuff.

Winston Harris: Really, really good. Well, that is all we have for the Today Count Show. Thanks for joining us. Until next time. We’ll see ya.

Jim Piper: See ya.

Outro

Winston Harris: Thank you for joining us here at The Today Counts Show. We got so much more planned for you so stay tuned and stay connected on Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, and subscribe on YouTube. Remember, today counts.
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