Episode 171: Genesis 17 Explained – God Renames Abram and Renews the Promise

—————————–

Today Counts Show Episode 171

Preview

Matt Martin: You were born this way under old covenant. There had to be this marking of the flesh. You couldn’t choose to be–don’t choose the regeneration product like you can’t make that happen only what Christ has done.

Jim Piper Jr: And then he says, and I will give you the entire land of Canaan, not just for your lifetime, but their your descendants–

Winstons Harris: Where people are not willing to commit, almost pre-rejecting uh commitment and the pain that might come with it. But I mean, I would argue that there’s the pain of commitment and then there’s the pain of–

Thanks to our Supporters

Winston Harris: Hey, before we jump into today’s episode, we want to thank all our donors and supporters who make The Today Counts Show possible. It’s through your generosity that we’re able to shape leaders through this content and this podcast. Be sure to like, subscribe, and follow wherever you find yourself coming across this content. Alright, let’s get to the podcast.

Introduction

Jim Piper Jr: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Today Counts Show. We are in specifically the Genesis project. For those of you who are just now tuning in, the four of us, sometimes three of us, sometimes a couple of us, and I’ll talk by myself if I have to. But we are talking through discussing the book of Genesis, from obviously a Christian perspective, but also a leadership perspective. Lots of good stuff that we can learn.

Just to kind of catch you up, if you need caught up is how we’ve kind of been wrestling with Abraham here for a bit and we’re going to continue to. What’s just really interesting to me and one of the questions that I had while we’re looking through this guys is, you know, it seems like every chapter almost every other chapter, the last three chapters, God’s talking about this covenant. I mean, how many times do we have to hear about this covenant?

Leadership Lessons from Genesis 17

Reframing Leadership: Beyond Branding and Popularity

Before we read Genesis 17 and start talking about these things that we’re learning from scripture, I came up with a few things myself that maybe if I just kind of laid that down as a foundation to think about as far as a leadership lesson, leadership expectations. The reason why I want to say that is because I think we are kind of sliding as a culture into thinking leadership is a cool thing. Leadership is a brand. Leadership is who’s number one on the charts, who’s cool, who’s not. I think we have lost the whole idea of leadership in our culture.

So just some things I wrote down picking up from these verses: there is a call of leaders to walk blamelessly. Wow, there you go. So who wants to walk blamelessly? I mean, that sounds fun. We talk a lot in business and in nonprofit work about vision, but what we’re going to read today seems as though vision comes first from God. Interesting concept. Does all vision need to come from God? If I have an idea, is that from God? You know, I don’t know. We’ll talk about that.

God’s Role in Identity and Generational Leadership

Another one that just hit me—particularly with this chapter, as we’re going to read here in a minute—is where God literally changes one man’s name and one woman’s name. It’s pretty clear that identity transformation is something that God does through the leadership development process. I know that’s true for me. I wrote some embarrassing things in my last book Story about things I did when I was younger. I’m embarrassed about them now, but I would be mortified if I had that weak a character today. So God is always working on us. I’m sure my character is not tight as a drum either.

Then there’s other things too: think generationally, be obedient even when it’s hard, trust God’s timing, intercede for others. Those are some pretty good topics. And so I think that if you’re joining us, hopefully that will cause you to lean in.

Hey, welcome, guys.

Matt Martin: Hey, hey.

Jim Piper Jr: Everybody good?

Matt Martin: Glad to be here.

Jim Piper Jr: Everybody good?

Matt Martin: Yes.

The Everlasting Covenant

Jim Piper Jr: It’s been a minute since all four of us have been together. So let’s have at it. I’ll start. Genesis chapter 17 says, “When Abraham was 99 years old,” I just told my dad today that he’s got to think about his next 15 years. He’s 85. And he told me, “Dream on son, dream on.” “When Abraham was 99 years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, ‘I am El Shaddai, God Almighty, serve me faithfully and live a blameless life.'” So there’s the first deal that I think we need to wrestle with. “I will make a covenant with you by which I will guarantee to give you countless descendants.” We’ve already heard that before. Right? Why is that being repeated again?

Verse three, “At this, Abraham fell down on the ground. Then God said to him, ‘This is my covenant with you. I will make you the father of a multitude of nations.'” We’ve heard that before. “‘What’s more, I am changing your name.'” Okay, there’s a curveball. “‘It will no longer be Abram. Instead, all will call you Abraham for you will be the father of many nations. I will make you extremely fruitful. Your descendants will become many nations and kings will be among them.

I will confirm my covenant with you and your descendants after you from generation to generation. This is the everlasting covenant. I will always be your God and the God of your descendants after you and I will give you the entire land of Canaan, where you now live as a foreigner to you and your descendants. It will be their possession forever. And I will be their God.'” Let’s pause there at the end of verse eight. See what you guys have to say about– That is a power-packed introduction.

Winstons Harris: A lot going on there.

Jim Piper Jr: There’s a lot going on. And like I said, why is there so much repetition of this covenant?

The Clarity of God’s Promise

The Gift of Clarity and God’s Incremental Vision

Gary Harpst: As usual, I color outside the lines, you know? I look at this passage and it just reminds me of a prayer meeting I had this morning with my partner where we were trying to discern a direction that God is trying to lead us and how we desire this kind of clarity. We don’t get this kind of clarity that often. The gift it is to have clarity—rock solid, this is it. Once you don’t have clarity, you start rehearsing, “Am I on the right path?” All this energy goes in a million different directions. I just think, man, God founded his whole relationship with man on this promise, and it’s rock solid.

Jim Piper Jr: Gary, we’d be really disappointed if you start coloring inside the lines. That would be disappointing. One of the things I thought about is, you know, one of the business or leadership clichés, platitudes that we hear a lot and we all know is true is: vision leaks. Is that one of the reasons why God continues? You know, I don’t know about you guys, but when I’m reading through scripture, and I haven’t been in a certain book and chapter for a while, and then I stumble upon it again, it’s like I’ve never read it. It just kind of wakens me up.

So I wonder if that’s part of why—though the covenant isn’t repeated exactly the same—He keeps adding a little more and a little more. Maybe that’s kind of what you’re talking about, Gary: we’re seeking after clarity because we’re insecure. We can’t see the future. But God gives us a little more, a little more, a little more. That’s another thought I had anyway.

The Faithfulness of God and the Fragility of Our Faith

Matt Martin: Could it be as Moses is writing this—in retrospect—he’s looking back, even maybe giving a lesson for us that God had spoken. And yet Abram kept finding a way to disregard it, to not believe it, to try a different path. Even Sarah: “Hey, let’s try this with Hagar.” Could it be Moses’s way of reminding us that God spoke it, God declared it, it’s going to happen? Even if Abram wasn’t disobedient, he definitely questioned it. He’s like, “I’m 99 years old.” When it was first given, “I was 86 years old.”

Jim Piper Jr: Maybe I misunderstood.

Matt Martin: Maybe I’m just misunderstanding him. But the writer might just be reminding us—no, it doesn’t matter the time or the age or the circumstances. God spoke it. God declared it. And He’s reminding us even through failure, through doubt, that God’s purpose stands. He really wanted Abram involved. It’s like how many times have we tried to direct our own path and God says, “No, no. There’s a way that seems right…” If you’ll trust and submit, regardless of age or situation—God is faithful.

Winston Harris: Our pastor calls it revelation in retrospect. This covenant seems normal to us now, but how insane must it have felt then? Abram had to embrace something absurd. Why us? Physically, this didn’t make sense. God repeated it for a reason—it wasn’t an easy word to receive.

Jim Piper Jr: It proves we’re addicted to the “how.” When we can’t figure it out, we throw away the “what.” Or we make up our own how, like Abram and Sarah. How many “whats” have we lost because we obsessed over the “how”?

Gary Harpst: And there’s so much grace. God showed up without being asked. He says, “I am… I will… I will.” Abraham did nothing. Just like salvation—God spoke a future into existence. It’s amazing.

The Demand for Blamelessness

Blamelessness and Human Limitations

Winston Harris: Can we talk about the be blameless? That seems like a pretty large task there.

Jim Piper Jr: We want to skip that one and move forward.

Gary Harpst: We’ll let you do that one, Winston.

Jim Piper Jr: Yeah, because I mean, to what we’re all saying, this is all God. This is all God. Yet, he tells Abram be blameless.

Matt Martin: What’s the Hebrew word? What’s the Hebrew word used there? I’m curious now. I’m going to look this up.

Winstons Harris: I was going to say, looking it up in the definition or dictionary, it’s literally don’t be able to be blamed.

Matt Martin: Oh Lord have mercy.

Jim Piper Jr: I’m guessing it’s kind of like beyond reproach, right?

Matt Martin: That’s not getting better.

Jim Piper Jr: I would think.

Winstons Harris: I feel like, at least on the New Testament side, oftentimes when Jesus would point people to a reality that was impossible, he was trying to point them to him. I feel like this is uh the same thread, if you will, right? Like, there’s literally no way Abram could be blameless. He’s already not blameless. He’s done so much up until this point, once again, trying to make it happen in his own power. It’s definitely like an impossible task that he’s being assigned to, which would have to force him to then depend on God for this reality to exist.

Gary Harpst: You know, Matt, as you’re–

Jim Piper Jr: I’m sure Abraham was a much greater man than myself, but it is kind of fun to look over the chapters. We can go to the beginning where– Because that’s one thing we are seeing is that as each chapter continues, we’re getting more details about what God’s going to do, more specific. Let’s just go back. Let’s just remind ourselves all that happened.

Covenant Faithfulness, Integrity, and God’s Ongoing Promise

Now, the Scriptures don’t tell us, but we do know through extra biblical literature, even history that it’s not like Abram was a follower of Yahweh. He didn’t know Yahweh. He worshiped foreign ideas until God introduced himself. And then he becomes a man of faith because he believes God. And so that’s really good. He’s a hero. And then he leaves with his family and that things are good, then they’re not good, then they go to Egypt and that wasn’t good yet.

Somehow, he comes out of Egypt with more money and then he becomes a hero by being the bigger man and letting Lot go this way and he went that way. Then Lot gets in trouble. He becomes the hero rescuing Lot. You know, so he’s a hero and then he blows it again where his wife and him decide to have a kid through somebody else. Now he goes from a hero to a zero. He can take on armies, but he can’t control his own house. Lots of stuff going on there.

And now we pick up here, where God is getting– To me, he’s down in the zero category. Right? That’s where he’s living. That’s how he feels about himself. And then the Lord shows up again. “Hey, I just want to remind you, it’s going to be awesome.”

Integrity, Blamelessness, and the Example of Noah

Matt Martin: It’s interesting. I just quickly look this up. It’s the same Hebrew word that is used in Genesis six and nine with Moses. It’s Taumim, I believe is how you would say it in my Texas accent for the Hebrew. The verse for Noah was, “Now Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time and he walked faithfully with God.” The definition I’m pulling out of Strong’s and different ones is that complete, that whole, that integrity. So it’s walk before me faithfully and with integrity, which is what we saw Noah doing earlier in the book of Genesis.

Obviously, writer is going here. There was a similarity and could it be that God, in all of his sovereignty, allowed Abram to have an example before him with Noah and like, you know, you wouldn’t be the first in a wicked world to walk with some integrity here. So interesting, exact same Hebrew word was used in both of those to indicate that. So kind of cool.

Jim Piper Jr: Yeah, what’s cool that we’re seeing is God is setting apart. He is sanctifying. He’s doing the work, right?

Matt Martin: Yeah. Which would show because of, you just put it in context, how wicked the world was with Noah, obviously God destroyed it, but obviously that wickedness had returned. there was a level of integrity to walk with that was counter-cultural that was stark. difference that showed if you walk this way– So the people of the covenant, the people of this covenant, maybe God is saying, “Hey, you’re going to walk with integrity, with wholeness, with completeness that others are not because whether they’ve not chosen to be in or whatever. But I think that’s interesting. Wow.

God’s Expanding Covenant and Identity Transformation

Jim Piper Jr: Yeah, so before we go to verse 9, let’s just take another quick look at now what is the totality of this covenant. He says, “I guarantee to give you countless descendants.” That’s one piece of it. Then he says he’s adding now not just descendants, but nations. All right, so he’s adding nations, and he’s now changing his name, showing a transformation of identity. And let’s see. Then, of course, we kind of forget that if it is nations, it’s also kings. “Some of your kids are going to be kings.”

And then he goes on further. He’s just reminding, he kind of closes up the back end of the covenant, saying that I will always be your God. Then he adds this, “And the God of your descendants after you.” So that’s an addition, because before it was, you know, as many stars in the sky, that’s how many descendants you have. They didn’t really talk about what kind of descendants and now he’s saying, “And I’m going to be their God, too.”

Then he says, “And I will give you the entire land of Canaan, not just for your lifetime but your descendants, and it’ll be their possession forever.” So, boy really covered in a lot. Alright, so let’s go to verse nine and we’ll stop here pretty soon as we talk about Abraham.

The Covenant of Circumcision

The Covenant Responsibility and Its Physical Mark

It says, “Then God said to Abraham, your responsibility is to obey the terms of the covenant.” Oh, okay. It was a unilateral covenant, but now he’s bringing ownership into it. He says, “You and all your descendants have this continual responsibility.” Here it comes. “This is the covenant that you and your descendants must keep. Each male among you must be circumcised. You must cut off the flesh of your foreskin as a sign of the covenant between me and you. From generation to generation, every male child must be circumcised on the eighth day after his birth. This applies not only to members of your family, but also to the servants born in your household.”

That’s the employment benefit that they didn’t know they were going to get. “Born in your household and the foreign born servants whom you have purchased. All must be circumcised. Your bodies will bear the mark of my everlasting covenant. And any male who fails to be circumcised will be cut off from the covenant family for breaking the covenant.” Pastor Matt, I know you want to talk about this.

Matt Martin: Wow, this is so dramatic, so dramatic.

Jim Piper Jr: Before I hit record you were talking about it so I’m putting you on the spot.

Circumcision: Symbolism, Sacrifice, and Spiritual Parallel

Matt Martin: This is wild. Winston and I, we discussed this briefly because this is like, of all the things to cut out, like of all the areas that you could choose. But when you look at this, I’ve read through, I don’t know, one of the commentaries somewhere talking about this. It was interesting because the parallel later would be spiritual circumcision. Once we get to the New Testament, we would see circumcision of the heart, the spirit, the soul. It would be a sign, if you would.

This is in reference to you were born this way. And so under old covenant, this covenant, there had to be this marking of the flesh. You couldn’t choose to be born circumcised. You didn’t make that choice, you had nothing to do with that. This had to be something that– -He goes on, after the eighth day and it begins to set up the rules around. Then we see the similarity in the New Testament because your new birth you while you choose new birth you don’t choose the regeneration process. You can’t make that happen, only what Christ has done can make that happen.

The Cost of Obedience and Daily Dying

There’s some parallels here that I find interesting. There’s a lot of conjecture around, “Why it was this, why it was, why it was circumcision.” Then in the New Testament, the apostle Paul, he kind of just goes off on them in Galatians about circumcision and what they should do. uh But You know, the wild part to me with this covenant of circumcision is yes, he set in after the eighth day a male was born to be circumcised. But man, if you were 30 and in the house and hadn’t been circumcised, get in line, buddy. You’re next.

Look at the language aroud it. He said, “My covenant, your flesh is being everlasting covenant. Uncircumcised male, who’s not been circumcised we’ll be cut off from his people because he’s broken the covenant.” God was serious about it. This is I think in our Western American church, modern church. Let’s come modern here. We like the idea of Jesus and the idea of salvation and the idea of being connected to it, but we don’t always want the full circumcision of the heart that goes with it.

Spiritual Circumcision and the Call to Die Daily

I think the spiritual parallel here is that God said, “No, no, no, I’m committed to you. Circumcision is a commitment.” I mean, that is forever altering. The other thing is, it’s a cutting away of the flesh. Let’s bring that to the New Testament. It’s the same thing. What do we have to do? We have to die to the flesh, cut away the flesh. We’re dying daily, as Paul said, to the desires of the flesh. I mean, there’s a lot of spiritual there, but man, you don’t have to unpack this very far for it to get crazy.

There was the hygiene side of it according to lot of- according historically, I said we’re going to say this on the– I’m not, I’ll back off for a second.

Commitment and Cost

Commitment and the Pain That Comes With It

Winstons Harris: I’ll jump in so you don’t have to say it.

Gary Harpst: Rescued.

Winstons Harris: One of the ways I took this part too, it was just the level of commitment required to experience the promise, to experience the vision. I think we lost the value of commitment in 2025. There’s so many, whether it’s in the workplace, whether we see it in relationships where people are not willing to commit. Almost pre-rejecting commitment and the pain that might come with it. But I mean, I would argue that there’s the pain of commitment and then there’s the pain of not being committed. Valuing the pain of commitment, it being costly, but there’s something on the other side of it versus not committing and not being planted, not being–

Just being the sojourner where you’re constantly going from opportunity to opportunity or relationship to relationship. That pain, that’s a different pain than a pain of committing and enduring and investing and building. That’s how I kind of interpret this along with the realities of what Pastor Matt shared, just that, man, commitment is costly and so many don’t want to pay the price.

Jim Piper Jr: I was listening to uh Ryan Hawk on the Learning Leader Show podcast, and he was interviewing the head wrestling coach. Now, anybody who knows me even knows a little bit about me knows it’s difficult for me to even say the words Ohio State. But I have to tell you that the head wrestling coach for Ohio State was being interviewed by Ryan Hawk and they got involved in a conversation that talked about pain and chosen pain and the difference between those two things.

Choosing Pain for Growth and Identity in the Covenant

They both bring can bring about– Pain can bring about good things in time. We don’t we don’t choose that. In his case, and I forget the coach’s name, but a very accomplished guy, a well-respected guy, but he’d gone through some pretty significant setbacks in his life and difficulties and loss in his life. It was interesting, though, how he contrasted something happening to you versus you choosing.

Kind of what you were saying, Winston, you’re choosing a commitment, you’re choosing a blameless life. And you’re choosing sides to the point that there is pain that comes with that because of our flesh because of the world in which we which we live in. He really had caught my caught my attention as how he coined the phrases that he’s trying to be a man who lives by choosing the right kind of the right kind of pain. It caught me pretty good here.

Gary Harpst: You mentioned earlier Abraham’s name change and identity and you know, a child at eight has not got anything to do with this decision. Eight months or eight days.

Jim Piper Jr: Eight days, yeah.

Gary Harpst: Their identity is tied in this. It’s really interesting that he’s told Abraham, “I’m creating something out of you,” which is nations. And then He tells parents to mark their children, their male children in this way. I don’t know, it couldn’t be for the child at the moment. It had to be for the parents at that moment and for the child later to know I’m part of this. You know, it’s really–

Forming Identity Through Ritual and Early Spiritual Exposure

Jim Piper Jr: Yeah, I remember I remember when– What I want to talk about here a little bit is infant baptism. I don’t remember how old my son was, but he was just a little guy. He was so little that most fundamental Christians, most conservative Christians would not have offered him communion, Lord Supper at the church, probably would have not allowed him to be baptized.

We were in a church context. I don’t remember how many people were there, but it wasn’t that many. But it was kind of around the Last Supper kind of idea. We had a feast and then that kind of turned into a time of communion. Somebody had given my son the juice and crackers. So I don’t know if he was like four or five, something like that. I walked over there to, you know, gently take those away from my son, knowing that he couldn’t possibly understand, you know, what was going on.

And with steely eyes, he grabbed my wrist and he stopped me and he’s, you know, basically challenged me for trying to take it away.  I asked him, I said, “Well, do you know what we’re doing here?” Man, he just gave me the gospel point by point, better than most adults. And I went, “Okay.” As we as we know, there’s a thing called infant baptism, and most Protestants don’t fall in line with that. We don’t we don’t we don’t practice that.

Childhood Faith, Legacy, and God’s Intentional Design

Yet, on the Protestant side, we do get the sometimes three-year-olds and certainly four-year-olds and five and six for sure, year olds where they want to be baptized. And many of us put on our pharisaical robes. And we go, well, they couldn’t possibly understand, you know, this and we keep in because to be frank, I think when I first went into ministry, I kind of struggled with that myself, at this deal.

But then, you know, what I’m doing is I’m piling on to what Gary said, is that, and Matt said it too. “These eight day old children had nothing to do with this decision. Yet, here is God’s commandment for them.” Obviously, God’s goal was that they’d be circumcised in the heart. But there is this thing of identity and community that maybe we just don’t realize the power of it.

“And so now I’m 25 and I kind of remember my baptism, but I don’t. And so I want to be rebaptized.” Okay, so what? You know, get rebaptized. But maybe we shouldn’t forsake, you know, the children. Even if it’s even if it’s not super clear, but we might be surprised how clear it is in their heart, you know, and their mind. I guess what I’m saying is, when it comes to ministry, when it comes to even exposing children to mission work, for example.

I remember I took Jimmy to Mexico to build houses with me. And boy, there was a lot of chatter about that because he was really young. I mean, he wasn’t five, but he was like eight or something like that. I’ll tell you, that was a shaping experience for him. Obviously, I was on guard for him with where we were and what have you. But I just think it’s interesting that that God would give that commandment for eight days in that so that stuck out to me. Kind of a sore area.

Sarah’s Transformation and God’s Grace

Sarah’s Name Change and the Promise of Isaac

Well, I just thought, “I wonder what kind of disability insurance a lot of those guys had. Was it a week? Was it two weeks? How long with the disability?” Alright, so we switch over to Sarai. In verse 15, it says, “Then God said to Abraham, ‘Regarding Sarai, your wife, her name will no longer be Sarai. From now on, her name will be Sarah. And I will bless her and give you a son from her. Yes, I will bless her richly and she will become the mother of many nations. Kings of nations will be among her descendants.’

Then Abram- Abraham.” Now I got to change my vocabulary. Just when I finally get it fixed that it’s Abram, not Abraham now I got to switch back to now it’s Abraham. “Then Abraham bowed down to the ground, but he laughed to himself in disbelief. How could I become a father at the age of 100? He thought, and how can Sarah have a baby when she is 90 years old?’ So Abraham said to God, ‘May Ishmael live under your special blessing.'”

I love that. God misspoke, got to help him out a little bit. “But God replied, ‘No, no, Sarah, your wife will give birth to a son for you. You will name him Isaac, and I will confirm my covenant with him.'”

Blessings for Ishmael and Obedience Through Circumcision

So now there’s more details. “‘And his descendants as an everlasting covenant. As for Ishmael, I will bless him also, just as you have asked. You know, that’s a good idea. Why we’re at it, I’m going to go ahead and bless him.

“‘I will make him extremely fruitful and multiply his descendants. He will become the father of 12 princes. And I will make him a great nation. But my covenant will be confirmed with Isaac, who will be born to you and Sarah ‘” How many times has he said that now? “‘About this time next year.'” More detail, now he’s laying it out. I mean, detail. “When God had finished speaking, he left.” I love that. I love that part.

“On that very day, Abraham took his son Ishmael,” let’s pause for effect on that. “and every male in his household, including those born there and those he had bought. Then he circumcised them cutting off their foreskins, just as God had told him. Abraham was 99 years old when he was circumcised and Ishmael his son was 13. Both Abraham–” I just don’t know how you can keep a straight face on that one.

“Both Abraham and his son Ishmael were circumcised on that same day, along with all the other men and boys of the household, whether they were born there or bought as servants, all were circumcised with him.” I just got to say this real quick. If we believe this is a redemption story here, I think it’s amazing that how God’s grace includes Ishmael, doesn’t forget about Ishmael, wasn’t Ishmael’s fault what happened. And God, God blesses him. God make sure he gets circumcised as well.

The Cost of Obedience

Obedience Without Hesitation

Matt Martin: I think it’s interesting here. This is obedience, lived out to the fullest. We can’t cherry pick this out because if you go back to chapter 15, chapter 16, Abram had this or Abraham at this point had decided I’ve tried it my way and this isn’t working. Yeah, like you said, he kind of offered up Ishmael again. “Hey, hey, how about this kid? He’s 13 now. Let him be the chosen one.”

Obviously, I’m inferring the statement I’m about to make. But Abraham didn’t have to go pray about this obedience. He just did. God said he did. Was it uncomfortable? Was it painful? Or was maybe even a little confusing? Yes, all the above, but man, how guilty are we when God is asking us to obey that we want to go pray about that? No, there’s some things you don’t, you know, you don’t have to pray about some things you just obey and, we see this lived out right here.

Abram would go on to make sure the entire house was following because he knew the power of this covenant. I don’t know, when I thought about that, he heard, he obeyed. We do have the bits and pieces of the earlier story that he had tried to do it without obeying and that wasn’t working out And so again, it’s been said and laced through this whole conversation, the grace of God, allowing Abraham another opportunity, allowing Ishmael another opportunity, an opportunity.

The Cost of Obedience and Leadership

Gary Harpst: You mentioned obedience and I just think of what kind of a society or structure was there so Abraham goes and tells people, line up, we’re doing this. Who’s going first? I mean, I’m just trying to think.

Matt Martin: Come on, boys, field trip.

Gary Harpst: Tell me why this is again, uh and who’s it worth for the people being circumcised or the one doing it? The whole thing is, as a leadership role, holy moly.

Jim Piper Jr: There wasn’t an instruction manual given either, what does this exactly look like?

Winston Harris: Learning as you go.

Matt Martin: Who’s gonna tester for the first five? Who’s the first five testers? Oh, that didn’t work too much.

Gary Harpst: Can you sharpen that rock a little bit? All right, well, anyway.

Jim Piper Jr: Ladies, we apologize.

Matt Martin: Apparently, it was not it. was practice among some peoples at the time. Winston and I had that conversation earlier. Like how, like who, what, you know, but apparently it was somewhat of a– It wasn’t completely foreign. I don’t have any context around that. I kind of had Gary’s questions like, “Who went first?” You know, so anyway.

Cut to the Heart: Commitment and Salvation

Jim Piper Jr: Was it Peter? Was it Peter’s sermon in Jerusalem where the response–? I mean, where’s that phrase? They were cut to the heart.

Matt Martin: Acts 2.

Jim Piper Jr: Yeah, yeah, did I get the context right? Was that after Peter’s sermon?

Matt Martin: Yeah, Acts 2.

Jim Piper Jr: You know, I think I think when you’re looking for leaders, you are looking for those kinds of people, right? People that are cut, cut to the heart, they, they still have a conscience and goodness and kindness and what moves them.

Gary Harpst: Let me ask something. On that cut to the heart, if you think about this sort of, this commitment, this tangible, okay, we’re doing this because we obey God and it costs something. In the cut to the heart part, what is it today that you guys see as sort of the cost of obedience in salvation in the moment. I don’t mean the long-term effect of obedience, I mean in the near term.

So, I mean, I’ll give you an example. I’ve seen people not willing to come forward even though they feel like God is calling them. You know, there’s the price of, I don’t want to be embarrassed in front of people. You know, I’m just asking, where is that? Is there an analogy to things that are involved that are hard for us in the salvation process? Humbling yourself is maybe one form of that. I don’t know. The question is not very clear, I guess.

Covenant Commitment and the Offense of the Cross

I had a testimony from a guy that was in prison for murder. He told the story that his life was a train wreck, and his mother invited him to go to Wednesday night prayer meeting. Everybody there was just praying. And he said, “The spirit of God or so,” he didn’t know what it was at the time, but he said, “I just felt like I had to go forward at an older call. “And he said, I just didn’t want to.”

I had this big struggle with getting out of my seat and didn’t want other people to see them and he knew they’d been praying for him. So he didn’t want to admit that he’d been wrong. Just all this stuff went through his mind and he refused to do it. And four days later, he was involved in a murder. What I’m getting at is, what is it, cutting something off is hard. You have to build up, I’m doing this out of obedience.

There’s a point at which you have to surrender to Christ. It has to be so important to you that nothing else matters, the shame, anything. He couldn’t do that. He now says that, you know, God saved his life because he by going into prison, ended up getting saved in prison. I don’t know, I don’t know. We’re trying to make faith easy sometimes instead of there’s a choice here. You know, there’s a decision to be made.

Jim Piper Jr: Yeah, it’s pretty serious conversation really, you know.

The Offense of the Cross

Matt Martin: Well, when you step into a covenant, a covenant should feel like it is costing something personally. There are great rewards typically to a covenant relationship, but there’s great sacrifice and there’s great intentionality and there’s willingness on the front end. I think some of this as we get into it, and I agree, there’s a danger among Western American church culture sometimes.

Matt Martin: I heard a guy, I read this years ago, man, 15, 20 years ago. Ed Stetzer in his book, Missional Churches, probably, or Planting Missional Churches was probably the book he was at the time. He said the only stumbling block in your church should be the offense of the cross. Like when somebody walks in and what he was getting at was making it easy for people to get there.

But when they get there, the one thing they should stumble over is the cross. Okay, this is a big deal. And he was talking about being welcoming in environments and creating easy on ramps and all of that, which we should do. But he was clear to say, “We’re not going to make the cross pretty. We’re not going to make salvation,” I’m going to use the word easy here, but that’s the wrong context of it.

Gary Harpst: Smooth it over.

True Covenant Requires Everything

Matt Martin: Yeah, we’re not going to smooth it over. You should have to run face first into the cross and come to a realization of, “Okay, I have to make a change. I have to be different. I have to make a decision that I’m going to step into this.” Because covenant relationship doesn’t mean that it’s validated because I step into it. It’s validated by the other side of it saying, “I’m willingly giving all on this side and I’m asking you to willingly give all on your side.”

I think sometimes we try to step into salvation as we’re validating salvation because I accepted it and said, “Okay, yeah, I want to do this.” We’re looking at covenant relationship wrong. When I stepped into covenant relationship with my wife, I didn’t validate it because I said, “Oh yeah, I agree.” No, it was validated because we were both willing to give our life and everything to that marriage covenant. So the same is true in this.

I think that kind of in line with what you’re saying a little bit Gary is when we come head first into the cross, face first into the cross, the reality of salvation and what Jesus did, it should cause us to pause and it should cause us to react and it should cause us to possibly hurt and to make change and to shift and to say, “This new covenant, when I give all because Christ gave all now, now the covenant is validated.”

What’s next?

Jim Piper Jr: The next chapter continues the discussion of covenant. So I think that is a good place to leave it. Maybe we ponder the whole idea of covenant as we continue the discussion because that is definitely what is being driven in here in these last X amount of chapters and going forth. Just an interesting note to drop is towards the end of the next chapter, chapter 18, apparently, this assertiveness by God is taking root in Abraham to where he is now becoming an agent of change himself and becoming more like his Creator. So that’s a good place to stop.

Gary Harpst: Go Bucks.

Outro

Winston Harris: Thank you for joining us here at The Today Counts Show. We got so much more planned for you so stay tuned and stay connected on Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, and subscribe on YouTube. Remember, today counts.
—————————–