Episode 173: We’ve Grown Older, Not Apart—Here’s How!

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Today Counts Show Episode 173

Preview

Jim Piper: You inspire me in that way because I don’t want to be grandpa slash Pillsbury doughboy. And I was heading there rapidly and I’m fighting against that.

Rhonda Piper: I want to see my grandkids get married and have children.

Jim Piper: Yeah, I have those thoughts as well.

Thanks to our Supporters

Winston Harris: Hey, before we jump into today’s episode, we want to thank all our donors and supporters who make The Today Counts Show possible. It’s through your generosity that we’re able to shape leaders through this content and this podcast. Be sure to like, subscribe, and follow wherever you find yourself coming across this content. Alright, let’s get to the podcast.

Introduction

Jim Piper: All right. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Today Counts show. I have with me today somebody I know pretty darn well. Her name is Rhonda Piper. She’s my wife. Hi, babe.

Rhonda Piper: Hi, babe.

Theme: Growing Old Together

Jim Piper: So what is this podcast about? Well, we’re talking about growing old together. And in case you missed it, Episode 150 is entitled Making Marriage Work 40 plus years of marriage. It really should say 45 plus years of marriage. That was done several months ago. But if you haven’t listened to that, it’d probably be a good bookends to, to listen to that and then to see what we have to share here.

The spirit of what we’re doing is a ministry to those that are interested. And obviously if your first podcast has to do with being married for 45 plus years, like some said, maybe you should do one about What does marriage look like now versus the building blocks that we had? So you and I were just talking about it and we came up with the title growing old together. The more I began thinking about it, well, it’s really two big points we can talk about: Growing old. So we’ll talk about that in just a minute and then growing together.

The Vision That Held Us Together

I’m going to start off with saying this. I think when I was younger, I think when we were younger, and I think we might have shared this in the first podcast, is that how have you stayed together, right? You’ve never had any hard times or whatever. I think our answer ah then was, well, divorce was just off the table. It wasn’t an option. So we had to work things out. That was one of our answers. And I don’t think that’s a bad answer, but I’m not sure it’s the best answer.

Actually, the more we’ve thought about this podcast, I think the strongest piece in our relationship, which has been mostly wonderful, but not always wonderful is that we literally did have a vision for growing old together. When you have a vision to accomplish something, it usually gives you the fuel that and the determination to work through any obstacles that’s trying to stop you from getting to your vision, whatever that might be, individually, as an athlete, business, ministry, whatever.

So anyway, that’s how I would like to start it. Let’s talk about getting old. It’s kind of humorous. It’s kind of not so humorous.

Rhonda Piper: I don’t know about that.

The Reality of Physical Aging

Jim Piper: It’s frustrating, but I think we can talk about it.

Rhonda Piper: Yeah. So in my case, as a woman-

Jim Piper: As a woman,

Rhonda Piper: -and as a wife-

Jim Piper: As a wife.

Rhonda Piper: -I would probably say the hardest thing I struggle with, now, you I always was told through our whole marriage and when I was young, you look so young for your age. I don’t get that anymore. I never get that. They’re like, “How old are you?” And I’m like,  “63.”

Jim Piper: I just got to jump on that horse with you because that’s been exactly my experience. I’m not sure when it ended, but I think when I was around 50 and I would tell people I was 50, they’d say, “You do not look 50.” When I tell people I’m 65, they don’t say anything. So that makes me think, “Well, gosh, you look like you’re 75.” But you know, yeah, I hear you.

Maintaining Inner Youth and Health

Rhonda Piper: Yeah. So that’s been a little, I look in the mirror and I go, “Hmm, that doesn’t look the same.” But then I thought, well, I’m gonna refocus myself and do it more inward, physically, try to exercise more, try to eat right, try to keep the mind. Like I told you this morning that the first thing I do, every morning I try to watch something that’s funny about marriage or something. Just go, “I’m not alone in this,” or we’re not alone in this.

I think that’s helped me a lot that I can stay younger inside and I do this for you, my marriage and to grow old together. And I want to do it for my family. I mean, I’m not afraid to die, but I do–

Jim Piper: Not even a little bit.

Rhonda Piper: What I’m afraid of is I think what it’s going to do to my grandkids, what it’s going to do to my kids and my grandkids.

Jim Piper: How am I going to take care of myself?

Rhonda Piper: That ain’t going to happen.

Beauty, Humor, and Inner Vitality

Jim Piper: But we already know that I’m going to die before you unless you get hit by a bus, right? That’s what we’ve always said. We have good information to know that that’s true. Well, I want to say this to what you’re saying, though. When I first met you, you turned my head, right? In the sense of attraction, you turned my head and you may think I’m blowing smoke, but today I think you’re striking.

But I like what you’re saying about working on the inner person. Not just your exercising, but your laughter. And laughter is, for you, I think it’s true for all human beings that it’s healthy, but for you, that’s one of your secret powers is laughing. I’ve tried to learn from you about that. But the Proverbs talk about that. It says that beauty is fleeting, meaning we only keep it for a while.

I look back at pictures of me in my 20s and 30s and even in my early thirties, I still believed I was invincible. I mean, I don’t think I ever said it to myself, but I felt it and I worked like it and I played like it.

Rhonda Piper: I think we were though. I think we did things–

Jim Piper: We blew away every couple we’ve ever met. They couldn’t stay up with us.

Rhonda Piper: And we would have everything done around our houses by noon. But now It takes us a little longer. I think we still work really hard. About 7:30, we’re ready to put our pajamas on and go to bed, which 7:30 that was just starting our night.

The Power of Laughter and Clean Comedy

Jim Piper: Yeah. I mean, let’s go back to what you said. You are right. That is a habit that you have. I know that when I was teaching every Sunday, a lot of people may not think this is super spiritual, but it worked for me. You know, so much of preaching and teaching is a serious matter. I mean, it’s a matter of life and death. If you believe that it’s not just self help and, feel good and things like that. And then of course, the weight of ministry in itself, it’s heavy. It’s really heavy. So getting stern, getting grouchy, even getting negative is not difficult to do.

So I remember when YouTube first came out and comedians, clean comedians, I have a hard time with all the F bomb comedians. I always have. I’m not trying to condemn anybody. I just have always just because you throw the F word out there doesn’t make it funny. In fact, if you have to do that, it’s probably not as funny as you think it is. But anyway, so guys like Brian Regan and then I forget Nate. Nate’s last name, but there’s some really good clean comedians. And I have found that just having a good diet of laughter really helps.

Exercise, Housework, and Showing Up

And you’re an exercise maniac, right? I mean, you exercise six out of seven days a week strenuously. And you laugh, but even when you’re done with your “official exercise”, there’s things that I just can’t seem to let you let go of. For example, we do not have a housekeeper. You won’t let me hire a housekeeper. And so you clean house. Of course you do the laundry.

Rhonda Piper: I don’t want that person to go crazy with me. It’s more for that person you would hire than me.

Jim Piper: Yeah. I mean, you take your car to the car wash and of course, those car washes never get our vehicles clean the way we want to. So, I mean, you’re out there doing all of that. So I’m just validating what you’re saying. That’s all I’m doing. Saying, “Yes, I see that.” One of the things I loved about you when you’re younger and you’re still like this today, but when I was dating, if that’s what you want to call it, there was what I would call the princesses and they were very rigid. They weren’t flexible, they weren’t agile, they weren’t fun. They were a pain in the butt.

I mean, everything had to be perfect, blah, blah. But When I met you you throw on your jeans, your t-shirt, we’d go do whatever we do. Even if you didn’t do it, you’d sit and watch it which was usually me playing ball of some sort. And you’re still kind of like that today.

Shifting Styles and Aging Gracefully

I think it’s more true seems like lately. Lately for us means which decade, but let’s just say the last couple of decades where  you seem to pay more attention to your dress than you did. Is that just me or is that more true now than it was before?

Rhonda Piper: That’s a good question. Probably, I probably didn’t know. Like I said on the–

Jim Piper: You didn’t know you could have 50 purse options and–

Rhonda Piper: Well, you have to have those. But I think, yeah, I think it did just–

Jim Piper:  But it seems like to me, like even on Saturdays, I look at you and the way you get dressed and I’ll go, “Are you comfortable wearing that? Did I miss a memo? Are we going somewhere fancy?” You seem to dress up more.

Rhonda Piper: That probably has to do with a little more of the aging.

Jim Piper: That was what I was getting that. I’m doing a little therapy with you.

Rhonda Piper: You are. No, I would probably say that’s probably the aging because things are different. You know, like you said, I could throw on–

Jim Piper: I think you’re more sensitive to your appearance now than you have been in your life.

Rhonda Piper: Yes. And I think, know, when you’re younger, you just think, “I’m young,” and go with it. It is me.

Jim Piper: It is what it is. Take me or leave me.

Rhonda Piper: Yeah. But I’ve always been a little about, remember with you, I’ve always said, and I’ve told the younger women that I have mentored or whatever, or even my girls that you don’t give less to your spouse.

Showing Up for Each Other Through the Years

Jim Piper: You’ve never been a slob with me and then dressed up for the world. If anything, it’s been– Well, it’s not been the opposite. No, you always are very careful of giving me your best appearances, even when I don’t require it. Because that girl in jeans and t-shirt is the one I fell in love with. That term we use fell in love, whatever that means. I think when it comes to– I’ll take a little bit of the topic. Right now, what’s bothering me the most about aging, it sounds silly, but this turkey neck that I got going on.

Rhonda Piper: Jim.

Jim Piper: Well, where did it come from? I didn’t have it. Then like literally it felt like one day I woke up and there it was. It’s not funny really.

Rhonda Piper: I’m trying not to laugh. I think with you, I mean, you’re probably going to say it, but I think for me to watch you is you feel that that strong, nothing would stop you.

The Challenge of Diminishing Physicality

Jim Piper: Well, I’ve never been a man, obviously of such large stature. I’ve been short. I don’t know that I’ve been small, but I’ve been short. You and I were talking about this the other day around the pool. When I was younger and there was a physical threat, I mean, where we grew up for some reason, there were physical threats, there were times like that. And I never had an attitude of run. I always had an attitude of fight. Then my attitude of fight wasn’t about surviving, it was about winning.

Today, if my family were in jeopardy and I was filling in the gap between the danger and my family, I already now know, this is hard to say. I know that I will fight. I know that, but I know that I’m not going to come out of it well. The objective would be to stop the danger. So you see the objective has changed. When I was younger, I’m going to win. Now it is how do I stop this from hurting the rest of my family, knowing that I won’t make it out alive, so to speak.

If any young men listen to that, that’s what you have to look forward to, because your masculinity does get challenged. And we could talk about silly stuff, but even climbing a ladder to a certain height gives me the heebie jeebies. Whereas when I was in my 20s, I didn’t think twice about it. Sometimes I would say, why do I even need a ladder? I’d climb it by myself. Replacing light bulbs in certain places, I would, when I was younger, hop on a stool. Now I can’t even get on the stool.

Adapting Fitness Routines to Maintain Strength

But it has changed me too, my exercise. Though I don’t exercise as much as you do, I exercise regularly. We do similar workouts, but I do a lot of strength training. I got to do the aerobic because for some reason afterwards, I feel like I’ve done something. With the strength training, what’s different than when I was in my 20s, when I was in my 20s, I could walk into the gym and walk out literally looking different. Now I walk into a gym, do the same stuff and I crawl out, feel horrible and don’t look any different.

But I will say this, in strength training, what I’m learning and what’s working for me is, I don’t wanna say every day, but four plus days a week, do something in strength training. And believe it or not, that’s bringing back better balance at the age of 65. I have better balance than I did. You know, just a couple years ago, I’ve had both of my shoulders replaced, had a mishap with one of them after a replacement. So that wasn’t fun. That was a setback.

So physically, I mean, the appearance thing to me matters also. But I do think it might matter more to you than it does to me. But the physical strength part, that’s what really is the struggle for me.

Rhonda Piper: That’s what I was saying.

Wrestling with Self-Image and Aging Together

Jim Piper Jr: I’m an ex wrestler and you know, so being being sentenced to a checkerboard table, that doesn’t–

Rhonda Piper: So as a woman, we think of growing old. So how do you look– Is it harder on you, on yourself, knowing you’re growing old when you look in the mirror and everything, or is it harder, not that you’re being mean to me, but it harder watching your spouse grow old?

Jim Piper: The answer might change on different days. I don’t know. If you are going through a a little downward spiral about something hitting you, whatever it might be, you and I talk about our weight a lot because it’s just not the way it used to be. I mean, I did not have a healthy diet when I was younger because I didn’t see any evidence of why I needed to.

I’d still throw up as much weight, was skinny as heck, I was fast and uh I could eat four cheeseburgers and a chocolate malt. It might be a little slow for an hour. But then after that, go back out and surf and do whatever we would do. I think that kind of goes back to how we started this episode is a vision of growing old together.

It’s weird, isn’t it? You probably see things in me one day that where did that come from? You didn’t see that before. And yet it doesn’t happen that way, but sometimes it does feel like it does happen that way. Arthritis, you know, that’s not a fun thing. My arthritis seems to be under control because I have been on certain medication and I try to stay active. There’s other things I can do to get better at it which is run away from sugar, which that’s against my religion but–

Rhonda Piper: You’re doing really good with that.

Jim Piper: Doing better. I’m doing better.

Small Changes, Big Impact

And when I made changes in the past, in my 40s for example, they would be radical, but I can never sustain them. I think what has happened now is I’m just making better choices. Some days I blow it, but I never blow it like I used to blow it. Now blowing it, I would not even have thought in my 50s that was blowing it. I’ve thought, man I’m becoming a hippie. I’m eating nuts and fruit nuts or whatever.

So to answer your question, I think that’s probably a moving target. Because if you feel depressed about yourself, you’re not even looking at anybody else. You know, you’re trying to work out of it. I know this for sure, though. I know that you’re not taking it laying down. You’re fighting and you inspire me in that way because I don’t want to be grandpa slash Pillsbury doughboy. And I was heading there rapidly and fighting against that.

Rhonda Piper: I want to see my grandkids get married and have children.

Patience, Expectations, and Giving Each Other Grace

Jim Piper Jr: Yeah. I have those thoughts. I have those thoughts as well. So what else? What else about growing old physically and relationally do we want to talk about? Any wisdom we could we could share?

Rhonda Piper: Being patient with each other in all areas.

Jim Piper: I think we need to get better at that. Because I think that even though we’re in our 60s, we have expectations of one another. It probably goes all the way back to our 20s and that’s not fair. I mean, if you don’t feel like doing something, you don’t feel like doing something. If I don’t feel like doing something, I don’t feel like doing something. Now, sometimes we need to try to inspire the other one to get off the sofa or whatever. Not that either one of us do that.

Rhonda Piper: Neither of us do that.

Jim Piper: But we kind of dial it back at times.

Rhonda Piper: I mean, there’s times that we just laugh at ourselves and that I think is a good thing. We go, “That ain’t happening.”

Jim Piper: Yeah, I think we’re getting better at that. I still think we have a long ways to go because I think as a couple, we’re still more serious than we are easy going.

Rhonda Piper: But I don’t think that’s ever going to change. That’s who we are. We’re too driven people. But we bring a lot more I think.

High Standards and the Reality of Aging

Jim Piper: We’re hard on ourselves. We don’t think we’re the friends to our friends that we need to be, even though we try. We’ve been blessed with, I think, a lot of friends. Now you never really know who your friends are but we have seen some folks in our ministry be faithful for a long time and have weathered storms and whatnot. I think we have high expectations of being generous with our friends, being available to our friends. We have high expectations that way. We have huge expectations. of what kind of parents we are, what kind of grandparents we are. You know, that might set us up for failure because, at some point we’re unable to do what we used to do. And our tribe is bigger than it was.

Rhonda Piper: And I think we sometimes do that. I mean, like I’ll even tell you sometimes-

Jim Piper: That you can’t.

Rhonda Piper: -that we can’t do it all.

Jim Piper: Yeah, there’s been times where we have been faithful in one weekend to every stinking grandchild and son and daughter. And then we come home, there’s nothing left.

Rhonda Piper: There’s nothing left for each other.

Jim Piper: And they’re all still going, you know? I don’t really know what to do about that, I mean, other than try to regulate it a little bit better maybe.

Centering on Principles, Not Just Family

Rhonda Piper: Well, remembering that us are the, is the number one. We never did that when the kids were young.

Jim Piper: That’s what we talked about an episode 150.

Rhonda Piper: Yeah, we never did that when the kids are young, but we seem to be doing that a little more than we did when we were younger.

Jim Piper: Well, Stephen Covey calls that being family centered. And so we might have shifted in some ways from being principle-centered to being family-centered. Being family-centered sounds like a good thing, but it’s not. Because when you’re family-centered, you make all your decisions through the filter of the family. You’re not making them on faith. You’re not making them on principle. Even being church-centered, for example, is not the best filter.

The filter is being principle-centered. What are the principles that God has clearly installed into creation. Do you know what they are? And do you govern your life by those principles? That’s what Stephen Covey taught and I think it was right on the money because a lot of the other areas are not necessarily bad. They’re just not centered. They should not be center.

If we’re principle-centered, then all those other important areas of life are going to receive the benefits and the nutrients. So like when you and I were talking on the first episode, episode 150, what we did pretty well is that we said Christ was the center, and then what was next to the outside of that was our relationship, even more than our family. But our family received the benefits of that, and what you’re saying is that–

Rhonda Piper: And our friends.

Jim Piper: And our friends and our work. But you’re saying that Maybe one of the things we’ve struggled–

Rhonda Piper: We’ve gone a little side.

Jim Piper: Yeah, maybe we’ve gone–

Rhonda Piper: And we’ll be honest about it. You think, well–

Jim Piper: We want our kids and grandkids to know that we love them and we care about them but maybe we’ve–

Rhonda Piper: And I think what- the aging thing, that’s where it comes in. If you’re thinking, well, how much longer am I going to be here? So I want to be an influence and be there for my grandkids and my children. Sometimes we might be here a little longer if we didn’t kill ourselves.

Jim Piper: Right, right. I’m just kind of looking over some of the notes that we talked about in regards to growing older. And of course, some people are going to want to know about the intimacy piece and all of that.

Rhonda Piper: That’s where the laughter comes sometimes.

Balancing Personal Wellness with Life’s Demands

Flirting, Affection, and Affirming Love

Jim Piper: Yeah, yeah. I mean, we flirt, but sometimes we’ve got nothing left in the tank. But I think flirting is important and affection is important. It seems like the older we get, I have more of a need for that than you do. You know, the hugs. I think we talked about this in episode 150, but we have marriage affirmations that we put together. One of them is tender words and gentle touches is really important.

I don’t know how you can grow old together and not get better at that. I think that that is really, really, really important. But we talked about this. We implied this one earlier, but just the metabolic changes and an aging body just makes everything harder. When I say you need to accept that, I don’t mean you lay down and keep all the habits that you had when you were younger, but you know, to think that you’re going to have, um a Mr. Or Miss Olympians body especially if you don’t have a DNA that leans in that direction that, that lean direction, you got to give yourself a little bit of a break because you can tend to pursue a whole ‘nother avenue of life. And there again, you’re off principle.

Rhonda Piper: Right.

The Trap of Physical Perfection and Life Imbalance

Jim Piper: You could become physically the healthiest person in the world and then spiritually relationally be unhealthy. And we see that all the time. I mean, when I used to go to the gyms and what I mean by that is we have our own little gym down here by the club and then we have stuff in the garage that we use. But I remember when I was more regular at the big gyms, you could tell people who live there. They just live there.

They’re not progressing in a career. They’re not progressing in education. They live there. So they’re kind of like a flat tire. You know, every time that sucker moves around, it’s flat, flat, flat. I’m not necessarily a person that talks about balance all the time. But there is some sort of balance that you need in life. In other words, there are, in other words, there’s, there’s a variety of drugs. And one of the drugs could be you’re trying to stay young so hard that you’ve missed out on life.  Right. You know, so what’s it going to add you? I mean, is it going to add another year to your life? Is it going to add another five years to your life? And yet you’ve sacrificed the last 25 years. I don’t know. You know, you kind of have to figure that out, I suppose.

Rhonda Piper: When I was younger, I didn’t think about it. You just did it. And I think growing older that I have to be more. thinking about and being positive thinking and, and praying more and being more. intentional on that.

Daily Discipline and the Importance of Intentionality

Jim Piper: I think one other thing that I did take a note on that I failed to mention is when it does come to keeping your weight under control and I don’t want to sound like a expert here, because I’m not, right? I mean, let’s just make that clear. I am not it. In fact, I would say most of my attempts in my adult life to get my body physically where it needs to be probably very dysfunctional. And I’m going to blame that on my young wrestling career, where in those days, we did not have the nutrition coaches. All we were told I remember they would hand out a sheet of paper, this is what you should eat is what you shouldn’t eat. Good luck.

You’re in your teens and your 20s and your appetite is crazy. You don’t have the accountability. But anyway, one of the things that works for me, and the reason why I mentioned this is because I think most experts ah that I’ve listened to say the opposite. So I’m going to go against what the experts say on this. But I weigh in every morning. I weigh in every morning.

“Most experts say that psychologically that’s damaging for you. But I think that most of the people that they’re talking to are these people that they’re in a fit to get to a certain goal and they’re just going hard, right? They’re trying to lose 40 pounds. They’re trying to lose 50, 60 pounds, maybe more. Or they really are a bodybuilder and they’re doing that kind of a thing.

I’m talking about the regular person who wants to get strong again, who in their 50s, 60s, 70s, and you want to feel more confident because that’s the trail that I’m on and it’s working for me. I’m getting stronger. My balance is getting better. My weight is coming down.

Weighing Daily as Motivation, Not Obsession

But the reason why I’ve got to weigh in every day is because of that whole metabolic deal and my lack thereof of only eating like a deer because I cut way back on calories higher on proteins.

You’ve heard all this stuff. You don’t need this commercial because again, I’m the last person to listen to on that. think but for me, my weight can get out of control so fast that if I don’t weigh in for a week and I’m a little sloppy in my eating if I gain three pounds, it will send me negatively in an acute depression to where I almost want to throw in the towel. So for me, “It’s, okay, I stepped up a little bit yesterday.” Maybe I didn’t gain a half a pound. But it’s telling me I did. So I get my act together for that day. And next thing you know, I lost two pounds, “I go, Whoa, that’s cool.”

So anyway, that’s that’s my story. I’m not saying that’s what everybody else should do. I just know it works for me at this stage in my life. So Rhonda, we said that we were going to talk about growing old together. And we started off with sharing that along with some of these principles that we’ve tried to live by that we wouldn’t necessarily project upon other people, because life is different.

Like, for example, if a woman is getting physically abused by a man, and you went into the marriage with the principle “divorce is off the table”, we would say, “Yeah, that’s not what we’re talking about. And yet we’re not trying to soften the commitment that it takes to be married.

Principles, Faith, and Facing the Reality of Aging

It’s such a dark world, sinful world, selfish, narcissistic world. Whether you’re a believer or not, everybody’s a believer. I just don’t know what they believe in. If you’re a believer in goodness, if you’re a believer in a creator, if you’re a believer in the gospel of Christ, then there are principles that you pick up along the way. But many of those principles takes discernment and guidance and community to help have the right kind of interpretation and application to those things. So I just wanted to make that clear.

But the vision growing old together, I know we said it when we were younger, but we really didn’t wave it as a flag because growing old, well, that seemed like an eternity away. But boy, I don’t know.

Rhonda Piper: We always had the mindset. There wasn’t even–

Jim Piper: Someone’s going to bury somebody. You’re going to bury me. I’m going to bury you. We know the odds are probably 85-15 that you were going to bury me. No, I think that’s honest. Again, unless you don’t pay attention and your walks out there and get hit by a bus. That’s the thing you got to be careful with.

So anyway, we spent some time talking about growing old. Now let’s talk about growing together. So we’re adding that word growing old together. I think that’s a big topic. So obviously, faith is a big part of that. I think that this whole thing that we’ve talked about with patients and whatnot playing the long game. When you think about doing it together that we haven’t already talked about, what comes to your mind? Do you have anything on top of your head?

The Evolution of a Relationship: From Partners to Companions

Rhonda Piper: Well, I just think it’s everything is– Growing old together has totally even how we do things now from when we were younger. I think we know each other more.

Jim Piper: Do you think we’re the same people we were when we were younger? Because a lot of people say, “Well, we just grew apart. We were just not the same people we were then.” And I don’t mean to make anyone feel bad if that’s the story that they’re telling themselves. My question though is how much of that is a false narrative? Because I think in a lot of ways I’m not that same person that I was when I was younger. In a lot of ways I don’t think you’re the same person. In some ways you are, in some ways you’re not. Some ways I am, some ways I’m not.

Rhonda Piper: But that’s what I’m saying is, when you’re growing from almost now we’re in our 46 year and plus we were dating before then it’s like your arm. It’s attached to you. You know your arm, you know your hand, you know your body and your body almost is like my body. I’ve been with you so long that I know. Like I’ll say to you, “Okay, what’s going on? I could tell.” And you’ll say, “No, no, I’m fine.” And I’m like, “No, I’ve been with you long enough that I–”

Jim Piper: Sometimes I’m fine means, “I don’t want to talk about it right now.”

Rhonda Piper: Yeah. Yeah. And then I was like–

Jim Piper: Sometimes, I’m really not thinking anything. I’m in my nothing box.

Rhonda Piper: Remember? Yeah. I said, “I don’t understand the nothing box.”

Waffles, Spaghetti, and the Dance of Companionship

Jim Piper: Well, yeah, but remember we went through, we read that book. It’s still in our library. Men are like waffles. Women are like spaghetti. Really great book where it talks about that men are kind of– Again, this is generally speaking, it’s not true. Don’t get all been out of shape, ladies, geez. But when we say men are like waffles, generally speaking, men can compartmentalize better than women. Now I’ll explain the women in just a second.

So imagine a waffle, and you got all those little compartments in there. So that’s kind of how a man is able to do things. Either shut off certain irritating factors or trials or whatever, and then focus on something else. Not all men, most men. And then we do have boxes and not just one, we have several boxes, and it’s called the nothing box. There’s nothing in there. We can literally go to a place where there’s nothing there. And if you interrupt my nothingness and say, “What are you thinking about?” Sometimes when I say nothing, it’s true. It’s nothing. Right?

Rhonda Piper: You’ve told me that.

Jim Piper: Yeah. And then, I know that you go, “Okay, you can’t even imagine that.” You actually do that. You do that because, as a woman, I do see you compartmentalize how you can focus on certain things when other things are this way. I’ve seen you do that. But anyway, then it says women are like spaghetti, meaning that if you think of a bowl of spaghetti, there’s how many noodles in one large bowl of spaghetti? I don’t know how many there are. I’m just going to throw out 25. I don’t know.

But every noodle touches a noodle that at least touches another noodle that touches another noodle. In other words, every noodle in that bowl of spaghetti is connected to every noodle indirectly or directly. And so that’s why often when you start telling me a story, I’m going, “Okay, dear Lord, can you just give me the bottom line?”

From Pioneering Partners to Intuitive Companions

Rhonda Piper: Then I’ll tell you. What do I say sometimes to you? I say, “There is no bottom line right now. I have to tell you this.”

Jim Piper: Everything is connected. That is the bottom line, that a whole bowl of spaghetti is the bottom is the bottom line.

Rhonda Piper: There’s where the patients come.

Jim Piper: Yeah, no, why did I bring that up? Yeah, we were talking about patience and knowing. I know what we’re talking about. So I think when we were younger, we were lovers and we were partners pioneering a new life. Now it’s not that we’re not lovers now. So let’s let the mystery out. We’re still lovers now, but we’re probably more companions than we are partners. Now we’re still partners, but we’re probably more companions than we are partners.

Companions, meaning sometimes I guess we never stopped to ask, “Well, why are you even with me right now doing what we’re doing?” Because you go where I go, I go where you go. Unless somebody stops and says, “Wait a second, do we really need to be together? We don’t need to be together. You can go do this. I can go do that.”

Rhonda Piper: Growing all together, we know our lanes.

Preparing for the Unforeseen: Individual Responsibilities in Partnership

Unspoken Rhythm and Shared Decision-Making

Jim Piper: We don’t need to talk about it.

Rhonda Piper: We don’t even have to talk about it. We know who’s picking up what, but what direction we’re going, what’s our position in that situation in all situations in work, in ministry, in marriage, in everything. Where when you’re younger, it was more, like you said, pioneering, feeling out what each other are.

Jim Piper: Okay, I agree with that. But a nuance that I want to throw in there is that together we make great decisions. Individually, that’s questionable because I tend to be option oriented, meaning that For you, I can be going too slow. You, I don’t even know why you wear a watch because every time for you is now. Everything’s now, right now. We have to know now. Everything’s black and white. We have to know now.

I can be like that and you can be like me, but generally speaking, I’m playing things out. You are focused, decisive, boom, this is what you think. You know, let’s face it, that has been a source of fighting in our relationship, but it’s also been a source of genius. Because when we put our heads together and stop lobbying for a certain position and listen to one another, we usually come out.

Facing the Reality of “What If”

Now, that brings me to another topic. Now, this one’s going to be tough. So right when you said what you just said, that we know our lanes. We know our lanes so well that we can have a tendency to take one another for granted. And I wonder how well we are preparing for the day, unless we both die in a plane crash.

Rhonda Piper: That one’s gone and who’s picking up that lane?

Jim Piper: Who’s picking up that lane. You’re reading my mind. I was thinking about it today. W don’t ever talk about the fact that every day or every other day, I see a basket of dirty clothes sitting in the hallway between our closets. And that’s evidence of you doing what you do. You don’t say anything. You don’t complain about it, you just do it. And I see you doing it. And there it is. If you do get hit by that bus he’s doing that, who’s doing that? Because I’m pretty sure it ain’t me. And that’s a problem.

Rhonda Piper: Well, it’s just like all the financials and all the, all that you do for our marriage and for our future. You know, we’ve noticed a few people that have lost their spouses and they don’t know where to go because they don’t know how to handle that.

Jim Piper: They don’t know where to go. They don’t know what to do. They don’t even know the why behind all of it. You and I have been working on that but that’s–

Rhonda Piper: We’re still far.

Jim Piper: If I drop dead today, those odds increase every day as we go, I’ve been trying–

Rhonda Piper: But you have prepared certain people for that, too.

The Need for Practical Legacy Planning

Jim Piper: Yeah. My board already has a a email of basic guidelines and instructions, much of which is to counsel you and things that have not been decided yet. Slowly but surely we’ve been putting different financial institution apps on your iPhone so that you can get into that. We have a financial spreadsheet that you have access to. Whether you remember how to get access to it, that’s a whole ‘nother thing. We have a CPA. We have the same CPA that we’ve used since I was 20 something in my early 20s.

Rhonda Piper: I think it’s a huge thing among people that are getting older and that happening. We’ve noticed that a lot. I mean, they’ve even told you, and me, “I wasn’t ready. I didn’t know how much he or she did.”

Jim Piper: Here’s another point we don’t live in a mansion, but we do live on a property that’s acre and a half. It’s too large of a home for two people, but we do have friends who come visit us, family that comes visit us, grandkids. Now, we built this studio that is on our property. It serves us well today. We’re able to keep up with it with some help. But if one of us were to go, that’s a game changer. So what’s the game plan? What does downsizing even look like?

Preparing for Change While Growing Together

You and I have only engaged in some of that conversation. We don’t really have a plan for that. Again, I’m less worried about me and making that decision as I am you and making that decision. I don’t know why that is, I do. You might say, “No, I’m good. I know exactly what I’m going to do.” I mean, you certainly have, I would say, layman’s expertise and buying and selling properties. We’ve been doing that for a long time.

Okay, so what else in together? So growing old is one topic, but growing old together, that’s the other piece. We’ve talked about knowing each other’s lanes, giving each other space.

The Changing Landscape of Intimacy

Rhonda Piper: I think that whole thing that everybody’s asking is the intimacy.

Jim Piper: Yeah. Are we gonna really talk about that? We’re still intimate.

Rhonda Piper: Well, not in a here level.

Jim Piper: We are still intimate.

Rhonda Piper: Well, like everything we’ve talked about, I think you learn, you know each other and you know even how you were when you were younger, how you are in the middle and how we’re growing old together. It changes.

Jim Piper: I would venture to say, at least for me, our intimacy today probably is more like it should be than when I was younger. In other words, there’s needs, right? There’s needs, but the need for closeness is more real for me now than it was when I was a hormone drunken 25 year old.

Rhonda Piper: Drunken.

Jim Piper: Right? I mean, am I making sense?

Rhonda Piper: Right.

Jim Piper: So being together in–

Rhonda Piper: The soft, back to our marriage affirmation.

Jim Piper: Yeah. General touches. In other words, tender touches.

Rhonda Piper: So that’s where it changes. Where when we’re younger if somebody was tired or they didn’t want to be in that intimacy area that evening, when we were younger, we’d get our feelings hurt.

Jim Piper: Well, when we were younger, there was hormones screaming to fight against that. Today, it’s becoming courtesy.

Rhonda Piper: That or one of us– But now it’s like, “Okay, yeah, I’m right with you.”

Jim Piper: Yeah. I think there’s a couple more things to talk about here now that I pulled up my notes.

Rhonda Piper: All right.

Forgiveness, Faith, and Life’s Unavoidable Hurts

Jim Piper: I think our faith has a lot to do with growing together. Like, for example, you do pick up lot of hurts along the way. I’m not talking about maybe the hurts between us, because if you don’t forgive one another, how can you be married for 46 years and not be good at forgiving? You know, ignoring is not forgiving. Letting it go is not forgiving.

Rhonda Piper: Just built.

Jim Piper: It might be part of forgiving, letting go to some sort. But if it’s not addressed, that’s not letting go. That’s-

Rhonda Piper: Stuffing.

Jim Piper: -stuffing, pretending, all those kinds of things. But there’s hurts that happen being parents. There’s hurts that happen being grandparents. There’s hurts that happen that you pick up in work, in ministry.

Rhonda Piper: In relationships.

Jim Piper: In relationships. And there are unavoidables that we may not have met yet, even now in our lives. There may be what the world calls tragedies that we have yet to encounter that we’re going to encounter. And so one of the things I have on my notes, in fact, I talked about this last weekend at our church, is that I believe that we’re united in this, that God makes all things right in his time.

So even though we might go to the grave with some things being unresolved, some things being part of our woundedness, if you will, we go to the grave in faith that God will make all things right in his time. I don’t know if you had something to say about that.

Rhonda Piper: No. That’s good.

The Inside-Out Approach to a Better Marriage

Jim Piper: The other thing I had, as we wrap up this particular episode, is that if you want a better marriage, whether you’ve been married for three years, or you know, going on 46 for us, if you want to have a better marriage, it’s an inside out proposition. If I’m looking to you to make it a better marriage, not saying you don’t have responsibility in it, you do. But if I want a better marriage, it’s got to start with me. That’s what we call an inside out.

Choosing Each Other and Handling Disagreements

The Daily Decision to Choose Each Other

Rhonda Piper: I think choosing each other every day.

Jim Piper: Yes, I forgot that.

Rhonda Piper: Every day we choose each other.

Jim Piper: We didn’t just choose each other on that wedding day, March 15th, 1980, but every day when we go to bed, when we get up, there needs to be a conscious choice. And even in the midst of unpleasant moments and times and arguments, there’s got to be a strength in our faith where I choose you. You’re my girl. You’re my only girl. You know, I’m your guy. I’m your only guy. I’m committed to you. We will work this out. We will fight this out, whatever that looks like.

Conflict, Preferences, and the Wisdom of Compromise

I think that there’s a saying that goes, familiarity breeds contentment. In other words, a lot of people say, “Well, he’s got that habit, it just drives me crazy. And she’s got that thing, it just drives me–” Facial expressions, body language. I’m just going to say it. That is JV. If you want to get to the next level in your marriage and grow old together, you– To say it’s JV means that you can express that to the other person, but don’t get offended. If it bothers them, it bothers them. Do something about it. Or if you think they’re being petty and you shouldn’t have to do anything about it, then you fight back on those kinds of things. You come to agreement.

This is where I got this from. One of my notes says, do what’s right, even when it goes against my feelings and when it’s hard. In other words, if you’re in a marriage and you think that being right is– Or let me just say it this way. You believe you’re right. You believe that your preference is right and somehow you think it’s got to come to that outcome? That’s probably a losing proposition.

In marriage, sometimes you have to lose to win. But I think that’s true in everything in life. If you’ve got to win everything that you believe or want or prefer, you’re looking for a miserable life. I’m not saying you’re supposed to be a doormat. You’re looking at me like you’re not sure you agree with that.

Rhonda Piper: No, I totally agree with that. No.

Jim Piper: I was going to say, cause if you didn’t, you’re wrong.

Rhonda Piper: No, I think that’s a big thing that we’ve done. I mean, there have been things that drive you crazy about me and there have been through our marriage. I think we’ve been good about saying it. There was one thing. Remember when you used to be in bed when we were first married, you would beat on your chest.

Small Habits, Big Conversations

Jim Piper: You know why?

Rhonda Piper: All night you’d be doing this.

Jim Piper: I just told one of my clients this morning about that. And what that was was stress. What’s interesting is when I got stressed, my chest would tighten up. But I was also very much into bench pressing in those days. I guess I thought that the way to relieve stress, muscles tightening up my chest is to lift more weights, which was an absolute not a good thing to do. Might’ve been better to loosen it up by swimming, something like that. But yeah, I remember doing that.

Rhonda Piper: And I let it go and I let it go and I let it go. Then finally I just said, “I can’t take that anymore.” And you stopped. It was weird because it was a habit you had.

Jim Piper: It might have been half habit and half relief from what I was doing, right?

Rhonda Piper: Right.

Confronting Mortality and Legacy

Jim Piper: Doggonit, there was something else. Oh, I know what I want to talk about before we say goodbye on this episode. This might be a weird topic but death. It’s not even our notes. It just came to me now.

Rhonda Piper: Wow.

Jim Piper: I’m not sure cremation is what I want for me and I think you’re on the other side of the fence though in our talk.

Rhonda Piper: Remember I told you, cause I’m so frugal about–

Jim Piper: Yeah, you’re frugal.

Rhonda Piper: I thought to myself, because we’ve gone through some stuff with death lately with some people and family member, and I’m just like, “It’s a ripoff. I don’t want you to spend that much money. I’m not there. There’s only one thing I’ve always told you that I want for my funeral.”

Jim Piper: Yeah, I’m not sure. You want a Southern Gospel choir at your funeral. I mean, but if you live to 100, which I think you’re going to there may not be a whole lot of people we even know by then who could do that, but I’ll–

Rhonda Piper: All the time, none of my family members have lived that long.

Jim Piper: Yeah, but you’re going at it a lot different than your family members too.

Rhonda Piper: True.

Burial Traditions and Personal Convictions

Jim Piper: I guess for me, and I haven’t arrived there yet, but I do realize that in that business, it does sometimes feel kind of shady and taking advantage of people. But for me, I know that this is true to a larger degree. Burial has been a Christian tradition. Not 100% holistically around the world, but generally speaking in the industrialized, in the Western world of Christianity, because when people are baptized they’re baptized in the water going backwards and then brought up out of the water. And it’s a picture of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, but also your faith in that and the application of that into your own life.

When you read the end of the Bible where it talks about the dead and Christ will be raised, I have a lot of imagery of pictures and things that were shared with me as a child where you actually see these souls coming up from the grave. So I know some of that– I don’t think there’s any biblical theological mandate that one be buried. Obviously, when the first arguments are, what about somebody who dies in a fire? What about a plane crash that goes down? Okay, whatever. We’re talking about an intentional decision about how one is there.

Memory, Meaning, and Honoring the Past

And I thought it is true because though I’m more of an introvert than I am an extrovert, visiting someone’s graveside, even though how many times have I visited my grandfather and grandmother’s graveside and it’s in California. So it’s not out of my reach. Not very many, you know, maybe a half a dozen times. And so this romantic side of me says, “People will come to the tombstone and say, ‘I miss you, Papa. I miss you, Dad'” and probably no one’s going to go, you know. That’s probably the truth.

But I thought it was important to throw in that we we don’t know either. I don’t know that there’s a right or a wrong answer.

Rhonda Piper: And that just came up the last few years of what I’ve experienced. I was always going to be buried, but I said, “No, I don’t want you doing that.”

Jim Piper: Well, and then you get some Christian influencers like Tony Campolo. I don’t even know if Tony is still with us or not, or if he’s passed. But I remember him giving sermons about Christians being better stewards of the planet and that we kind of have this, “it’s all going to burn anyway” attitude. He never really swayed me, but part of his argument would be we’re taking up ground for the living for the dead. And I’m going, “Yeah, I don’t know if that’s true either.”

Rhonda Piper: That’s a little stretch.

Jim Piper: Yeah, right. Sometimes people make it more-

Rhonda Piper: Than it is.

Jim Piper: -than it should be. I mean, think about it, too. You know, there are church graveyards around the country where you couldn’t be buried there unless you were a member. But a member was also defined in kind of sketchy ways if they weren’t financially–

Rhonda Piper: What is a big thing we always do when we go to different states?

Jim Piper: We love to visit the cemeteries. Particularly ones around churches.

Rhonda Piper: Yeah. That are really old and we get to read about them and we wonder, what is their family about this? And why did that person die? That’s kind of a little bit of history. Even going to see in that could be a little romantic for you because you love to go do that.

Jim Piper: Well, it just seems honoring to me that somebody has lived the life counted. I don’t know, I’ll probably sign on the dotted line. “Just just cremate me and I’ll be sad.”

Rhonda Piper: Honey, I’m not gonna create you. I already know what you feel.

Jim Piper: But if that’s true, then we should probably get our act together financially so that it’s not as expensive now as it might be then.

Legacy, Love, and Living by Conviction

I know how I want to close this podcast. I’m gonna ask you to think about how you want to close it. So however you want to close it, you think about how you want to close it. Here’s what I want to say to anyone who listens to this podcast. I do believe it fits into the realm of what we’re talking about growing old together but it may not seem like it.

If anybody wants to know my philosophy of life and my philosophy of ministry, I’m going to sound like holier than thou, and I am not holier than thou. I am a dude. I’m just a normal dude. In fact, I always, even our studio engineer that’s in here right now with us is very respectful, calls me Pastor Jim. And slowly, I’m just not that kind of a guy. Yes. Okay, I’m licensed, ordained, yada, yada, yada. When I go to graduation, I wear all the colors all over me, all the accolades and academics. Yeah. Who cares? Right? It comes back.

But if I believe anything, I believe this. You do what’s right because it’s right. You love people not because of what they give back to you. Even as hurtful as it can be to those that are the closest to you, often it’s the ones that are closest to you that hurt you the most. You give to them, you love them, you worry about them, you pray for them, and sometimes you just don’t feel like it’s reciprocal.

Closing with Faith, Hope, and a Shared Vision

I believe when you bow to that, when you do to that, you’re lowering yourself, you’re not living to the way that God has called you to live. And by the way, the last time I checked, God has done a lot more for us than we could ever do in return. As far as I know, he’s not going to change the game plan. He’s made some promises of what he’s going to do, and I trust him for that.

So that is my philosophy of life. I’m not saying I always do that, but what I am saying, I’m not saying I don’t get my feelings hurt. And that’s about marriage. It’s about parenting, grandparenting, friendships, business associates. It’s all those things. Do what’s right because it’s right. Love because that’s what you’re supposed to do. It’s what God has called you to do. And I think that has a lot to do with growing old together.

A Vision for Growing Old Together

If I am on a deathbed, I want this girl to hold my hand and know that we did it. We grew old together and we died together, so to speak, in how that is. If somehow, which I highly doubt, that I’m holding your hand while you’re on the deathbed, the same thing. I want you to know that we did good and we did it and we did what’s right because it was right.

On this planet and in this world, you may not in your lifetime receive back what you think you should. But let me ask you this. The Bible says that why we were still sinners, Christ died for us. So I don’t get it. I don’t get why we would lower our standards, why we would change the gospel that we live out, say, “Well, I will die for you as long as you do this for me.” That’s not the gospel. The gospel is to give our lives to others and that’s it. That’s it, regardless of what we get back.

Legacy and the Right Kind of Love

So that’s how I wanted to end. In spite of my sinfulness, in spite of my weaknesses, in spite of who I am, I want to go out in our marriage and I want to go out in this life, being somebody that people say, “He did what was right, because it was right, regardless of what he got back in return.”

Rhonda Piper: And I would have to say with you, you’re very good about that. You’re excellent on doing that, even with me. When I’m going down that road or path or hole.

Jim Piper: Kill him.

Rhonda Piper: And I do do that, but I’ll tell you, I’m going to this direction and you don’t just go, “Well, that’s not what the Bible says to do and you need to change and you’re lowering yourself.” You’ll say more to me, “Well, let’s look at it this way. And is that what you want to be?”

Jim Piper: You don’t always like it when I do that though.

Rhonda Piper: That’s true. But do I want to be known as a grandma like that, as a mom like that, as a wife like that.

Jim Piper: That’s the legacy I’m talking about.

Rhonda Piper: I mean, what could I say to that? I don’t want to be known as that. I know I’m doing it, I know it’s not right. I’m mad at that person or I’ve got my feelings hurt, but you’re really good to–

Embracing the Full Spectrum of Relationships

Jim Piper: In our discussions because I like how you’re saying that, it’s not that you’re wrong. It’s not that you’re wrong to be hurt. Or you’re wrong to be offended.

Rhonda Piper: You say that all the time.

Jim Piper: It’s what you do with that being wronged.

Rhonda Piper: And I think growing old together. Like I said, the mind is more stronger than it was when I was younger. Yeah, I have to choose to love you, choose to, am I going to get bitter on that situation? Every day I have to make right choices. So not not only like you said to do the right thing, but you have to choose to do the right thing.

Jim Piper: Right. When everybody starts a phrase that says in a perfect world, then right there, we should just stop and say, “Okay.”

Rhonda Piper: We know that’s not it.

Jim Piper: “We’re not in a perfect world.” In this world, how might we respond and act? I just didn’t want our podcast to come out like, man, everything’s everything’s wonderful.

The Nature of Relationships: Draining, Neutral, and Filling

You know, like Bill Hybels taught me when I was a young man, there’s three kinds of relationships. And by the way, three kinds of relationships in all categories of life, marriage, family, friends, associates, strangers, all of them. There’s draining relationships. There’s people in–

Rhonda Piper: Let’s hope your spouse isn’t your draining one.

Jim Piper: True. Well, it can be though. There’s seasons where it’s draining, right? I mean, there’s a day where I drain you or an hour that I drain you. So it’s just a microcosm of these three. But anyway, so there’s draining relationships. And if you think you’re not supposed to have a draining relationship in your life, then you’re already believing a false narrative.

Rhonda Piper: Right.

Jim Piper: Second, you have neutral relationships. It’s what Bill Hybels said was kind of give and take. And then finally, you have filling relationships. Sometimes those all come from the same person.

Rhonda Piper: I never thought of it that way. Well, I’ve always thought of I know my draining people and I know my filling person because I’ve always had–

Jim Piper: A draining person–

Rhonda Piper: This is where my boxes came from. Yeah, yours is a spaghetti.

Jim Piper: Watch this. When a draining relationship fills you, you’re pleasantly surprised and shocked. Right? I think we should leave it there. That was awesome. Thanks for joining us on the Today Counts Show. Thanks, babe.

Outro

Winston Harris: Thank you for joining us here at The Today Counts Show. We got so much more planned for you so stay tuned and stay connected on Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, and subscribe on YouTube. Remember, today counts.
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