Episode 177: Genesis 19 Explained: Judgment, Mercy, and Lot’s Escape from Sodom

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Today Counts Show Episode 177

Preview

Jim Piper: To what you were saying—what we actually see so many times is we see God to the rescue. God to the rescue, God to the rescue. But when His rescue is judgment and condemnation, we somehow don’t relate that. We don’t seem to realize that to save something, you often have to kill what is trying to destroy that something. You know, doing something part-time doesn’t always give you the ROI—the return on investment—you were hoping because—

Appreciating our Donors

Winston Harris: Hey, before we jump into today’s episode, we want to thank all our donors and supporters who make The Today Counts Show possible. It’s through your generosity that we’re able to shape leaders through this content and this podcast. Be sure to like, subscribe, and follow wherever you find yourself coming across this content. Alright, let’s get to the podcast.

Introduction

Jim Piper: Hey everybody, welcome back to The Today Counts Show. I have with me today Pastor Winston Harris, and it’s just going to be the two of us today in the Genesis Project. We have parachuted into the story of history, the history of the Bible in the 19th chapter of Genesis. If you’ve been following along with us, we left off where Abraham was interceding for this city. He was pleading, negotiating, I guess you could even say, with the Lord that He would have mercy upon the city.

Sodom and Gomorrah: God’s Judgment in Genesis

That was an interesting discussion. Winston, today we’re going to be looking at the absolute destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. I thought maybe we could talk about some of the high points of this 19th chapter before we read through it. But one of the things that struck me so far in our reading of Genesis is though it has been filled with beauty, there’s sure been a lot of God’s judgment in it.

We have the fall, where God curses man’s work, the planet itself, childbirth—you have that going on. Then we have the flood. Then we have the Tower of Babel, where He mixes up language. I would call it software problems. Today, when our software doesn’t work, our whole life gets crazy. So if you can’t communicate, that’s not a good thing. And now we get to this place where God is destroying an entire city.

It kind of makes you wonder what this is telling us about God. I’ve even heard people say they don’t like the God of the Old Testament. What are your thoughts about this?

God as a Gardener: Confronting Obstacles to Life

Winston Harris: Yeah. Where my mind goes, specifically with the flood, here we see God executing judgment on this city. Immediately my mind goes to the God of the New Testament as a gardener. He’s constantly pruning, constantly removing what doesn’t bear fruit, constantly making way for life.

I think that’s the tension that an unbeliever and a believer has to acknowledge and live in. Much like the physical reality of a garden, one of the ways that you make way for life is removing things that are an obstacle to life. If there are things that are not conducive to a healthy environment, you have to confront that. You have to address that.

Whether we’re talking about leadership in the workplace, in our homes, or in our own personal life—leading ourselves—I think you can even drill it down and bring it back into those realities. Are we willing to confront things that are not creating room for development, not creating room for growth, or not allowing us to think differently?

Death as the Pathway to Life

God here in the Old Testament, there’s a physical expression of a spiritual reality, which is: in order for an environment to create life, there seems to have to be death. There seems to have to be something that is required to die. I think we see that theme throughout the scriptures, and there’s the echo of the gospel in there. Something has to die in order for something to live.

Jim Piper: Wow. My mind did not go there. I would move immediately to the pragmatics. Working with leaders as my calling, you just mentioned something that I think we all struggle with. We add quickly, but we don’t eliminate in order to add effectively. Doing something part-time doesn’t always give you the ROI, the return on investment, that you were hoping because we reap what we sow. What we reap is directly related to the amount and the quality of what we sow.

Worldview and God’s Justice

Where my mind went—which is certainly not better than your idea, my mind went to it’s a worldview question. It’s a difficult question, but whether someone realizes it or not, everybody has a worldview. In that sense, everybody’s a follower of something. They’re following a worldview. If they choose to believe that there is no God, then they’re going to live in such a way where they’re not even going to ask these kinds of questions.

If you believe there’s a God, then though it might be a scary question to ask, “Is this how God deals with our failures? Is this what it looks like?”

To what you were saying, what we actually see so many times is God to the rescue, God to the rescue, God to the rescue. But when His rescue is judgment and condemnation, we somehow don’t relate that. We don’t seem to realize that to save something, you often have to kill what is trying to destroy that something. And thus, war. Everybody has their view on that.

Lot’s Choice and God’s Mercy

Then there’s that interesting part too, where Lot, who has seen the hand of God, chooses the best land closest to the city and eventually gets intertwined in the city. Apparently, based upon the chapter before, there weren’t enough people in Sodom and Gomorrah because the conversation between Abraham and the Lord was He was very willing to be merciful.

Like we joked about last time, He already knew how many faithful people there were. God really wasn’t negotiating when you think about it. He already knew what was going to happen, and so did the angels. The angels that we’re going to read about in this story saved the lives of Lot’s family, because I don’t think they were going to leave. It certainly didn’t look like it. When we read this, He literally grabs them and chases them out of the city.

Then we read about Lot’s wife, who obviously loved Sodom because she looked back—longing and saddened by what was going to happen. Her viewpoint wasn’t, “It’s about time God cleaned house here.” That wasn’t her viewpoint. Her viewpoint was loss. She was going to lose something.

Incomplete View of God and Leadership

Winston Harris: You pulled on a thread that I’ve been thinking about personally, especially reading through this—I think we can often have an incomplete view of who God is and lose the appreciation for who He is in respect to who we are.

What I mean by that is if we don’t acknowledge the God who is capable of judgment and condemnation, then we can’t truly appreciate the God of grace, love, and mercy. If we only think of God in terms of grace and love, then we almost depreciate that same grace and love. It starts to slip into entitlement—like we deserve certain things.

That leads us into a posture where we expect God to respond to our desires and the way that we think our life should look, versus understanding that no, I don’t deserve anything that God actually gives me. But because I know His full character—that He is holy, pure, and righteous—then anything that is not that, He has to address. But He’s addressed it through Christ.

Now, if I have that kind of understanding, I can truly appreciate that grace is a gift. If we draw that parallel to leadership, think: if we only think leadership is about winning, we think leadership is about trophies, whatever your benchmarks, success, making money, and building things—but we don’t see the totality of failures, difficulties, hard conversations—then we have an incomplete view of leadership and our assignments and responsibilities.

We depreciate the value of the roles and the seats that we sit in as well. I think those things can also be threaded—maybe not immediately and directly, but I think there’s a thread there.

Humanism and Compartmentalizing God

Jim Piper: Yeah. I feel like you’re almost bringing up the idea of humanism. The question is, what do we hold in the highest regard? Humanity—our love for our brother, which we should hold in high regard—or God?

I think sometimes I see this version of humanism: “God, just let us do what we want to do. This is our earth. You made us and gave us dominion over this. So we’re just gonna do us. You do You, God. We’ll do us. But if we’re in trouble, hopefully You’ll answer the door. We’ll need You then, when we don’t have a solution.” But then when we get involved in destructive manners and God comes in and cleans up the house, we don’t like that.

Winston Harris: Compartmentalizing that.

Jim Piper: Yeah. That’s a word I had in the back of my mind—compartmentalizing Him. That’s what we’re going to read about. We’re going to read about these angels. They come to the gate. Lot meets them. There’s a big thing that happens hours after that.

There’s the running for their lives—literally—although the angels kind of had to light a fire under them to run. Then there’s the discussion about even where they’re going to run to. And of course, we have that famous part where Lot’s wife looks back and turns into a pillar of salt. So why don’t we dive in and see what else we can pick out of it?

The Angels Arrive in Sodom

I’m reading in the New Living Translation. I’ll try to read it in a way that, if you’re driving in your car or walking or exercising or cleaning house or whatever, it hopefully won’t be too herky-jerky, and you can kind of follow the narrative.

Genesis 19, beginning in verse one, says: “That evening the two angels came to the entrance of the city of Sodom, and Lot was sitting there as they arrived.” I think Lot was sitting there because he had influence in the city. I believe that officials of the city kind of sat ther almost as judges or whatnot, to help the people. So he did rise in influence.

When Lot saw the angels, he stood up to meet them. Then he welcomed them and bowed low to the ground.

My lords,” he said, “come to my home to wash your feet and be my guests for the night. You may then get up in the morning as early as you like and be on your way again.”

“No,” they said, “we’ll just spend the night out here in the city square.”

Curiosity About Angels’ Physical Needs

I’ve always wondered—when angels walk the streets of our cities, do they have needs? Do they have human, physical needs? It’s just a fleeting question.

Winston Harris: If we want to bring up a previous conversation of the Nephilim, I mean, it’s interesting. When you continue to read on, they’re going to sit down and eat and all this stuff.

Jim Piper: Right. It really is. It’s mysterious. It makes me even more curious as to God’s creation.

I’m at verse 3 now: “The angels said, ‘No, we’re going to stay out here in the city square.’ But Lot insisted. So at last, they went home with him.” They finally gave in. He set a great feast before them, complete with fresh bread made without yeast. After the meal, as they were preparing to retire for the night, all the men of Sodom– Again, I’m wondering, do angels need to sleep?

“All the men of Sodom, young and old, came from all over the city and surrounded the house.” Word spread, I guess. Somebody observed something.

Sodom’s Demand and Lot’s Offer

Verse 5 says, “They shouted to Lot, ‘Where are the men who came to spend the night with you?” This to me is just so bizarre. “Bring them out so we can have sex with them.'”

What was the attraction here? I can’t think that it was anything other than demonic influences of some sort. That’s just my running commentary.

Verse 6: Lot stepped outside to talk to them, shutting the door behind him.

“Please, my brothers,” he begged, “don’t do such a wicked thing.”

And then the next statement blows my mind:

“Look,” Lot says, “I have two virgin daughters. Do with them as you wish, but leave these men alone, for they are under my protection.”

I just have to pause there. I’m just wondering—what is going on here? You have homosexuality. You have a perverted sexual drive, but this is even more than that.

The Angels’ Presence Demands a Response

Winston Harris: Yeah. The way that I saw this, beyond that, to your point—it was almost like their righteousness, their– Because they had to know, they had to see something was different about these two angels. Just like Lot seems to know that there’s something different about these two angels. It’s almost like their righteousness, we could also call it their leadership, because they will end up leading Lot and his family out of this place—the phrase I got is it demanded a response.

Something about them demanded a response. It demanded a response of Lot. His response, he ends up bowing down, he was to trying to serve them, trying to prepare a space for them. But it also warranted another response—this abusive, to you point, demonic, a dark response.

Initially, looking at this, I thought it was interesting that their presence demanded a response. Nothing was casual about this interaction. Nobody was like, “They’re just some visitors.” They didn’t demand a response, but something about them caused a visceral response from both Lot and the men of Sodom. I thought that was interesting.

A Reflection of Jesus and the Power of His Name

Jim Piper: I didn’t even think of that. I think that’s brilliant. I hate it when I stutter when I’ve got so many things I want to say. It’s just like the name of Jesus—the story of Jesus, the claims of Jesus. It demands a response. You can’t simply ignore it. It demands a response.

This is kind of a reflection of Jesus, where these angels are coming. Yes, they’re bringing destruction, but they’ve got salvation in mind. They’ve got who they can help in mind. That’s always going to be the leaning indicator of heaven. It’s going to be to rescue, to redeem, to make right. That’s really good. It demands a response. I did not think about that.

The Difference in Humility and Opposition

Winston Harris: I just thought it was interesting. We see the difference in response. One is humility. Lot is like, “I can’t help but acknowledge, I can’t help but lower myself, I can’t help but figure out how to be hospitable.” But then those who are in opposition to the assignment of these visitors, they wanted to impose their will. They wanted to humiliate. They wanted to abuse.

To your point, we end up seeing that played out in the gospel, but even in modern day. If you choose to stand up for something that is right, good, pure, moral in 2025, you’re going to be met with opposition. It’s going to warrant and demand a response. People are going to want to humiliate you. People are going to want to come up against your character, your personhood. However people can “cancel” you or discourage or destroy you, they will. If you choose to take a stand, if you choose to be on mission, to have a conviction in 2025—you can expect a response.

The Reality of Evil and God’s War

Jim Piper: When I was a teenager, my mom was paying me to read the Gospel of John and the Book of Proverbs. I was always dumbfounded by how much Proverbs warns about evil men who are plotting dark things. In my boyish wisdom—or lack thereof, experience—I never saw that. I never saw bad guys hiding in the bushes, I never saw people conspiring to kill somebody. I never experienced that.

Childhood Perceptions vs. Reality at 65

Now at 65– When I was a little boy, did I think there were boogeymen when I was a little boy? Yes, of course. Did I think the grouchy neighbor over there might be a bad guy? Yeah, of course. But not to the extreme that Proverbs talks about. Now at 65, I know that there is evil, and it is super dark. And I know this doesn’t sound really encouraging, but kind of what you were saying about appreciating God’s grace and mercy—sometimes what it takes to understand the beauty of God’s creation, what needs to be protected, the innocence—is that God declares war.

He declares war because there is a darkness attempting to further the destruction, whereas God is wanting to redeem. I don’t know why I struggled with Proverbs that way. Because even when I was a lot younger and had a paper route, there was this housing development, I think it was a big apartment complex. These boys, I mean we’re talking boy-boys. I’m not sure how old I was, 10? Maybe I was 10.

So these boy who’re maybe 10, 11, 12, eight of them, 12 of them, something like that, they knew when I was coming through to deliver papers. They weren’t there all the time, but they were hiding. They got a kick out of chasing me down, though they never caught me. But I remember my heart racing, thinking, “Are they here today?”

I don’t know why I couldn’t translate that little-boy evil into the fact that those boys are growing up someday. And why would that be childish play when someone could get really hurt? I knew some of them had spent time in juvenile hall.

Lot’s Pragmatism and Questionable Choices

Okay, so here’s the thought I had—see what you think. Then we have Lot literally offering up his daughters to this crazy mob. I began to think about it: Wait a second. Lot’s history. Again, I don’t want to throw him completely under the bus, but he pales in manhood and godliness next to his uncle. He’s nothing compared to Abraham.

What we learn about Lot in the story up to this point is that he was a pragmatist. He wasn’t an idealist. He wasn’t altruistic. He’s a pragmatist. That’s why he chose the better parts of the region versus honoring his uncle, who basically gave him life. He’s the one who made him rich. He couldn’t even do that.

Then, of course, he moves closer to a metropolitan area where he could have more conveniences. Again, that’s pragmatism. What he sees is that these angels, in his view, had to be protected at all cost. That’s the only thing I can come up with. Certainly, he loved his daughters. But I guess there was a hierarchy of theology in his head somewhere, where it would have been worse to turn over the angels than to give away his daughters.

I don’t know if you’ve come up with anything better.

Struggling to Understand Lot’s Decision

Winston Harris: Yeah, no, I would agree. I can’t fathom what would drive you to–

Jim Piper: You have two little girls.

Winston Harris: Yeah, I can’t even conceptualize how you would arrive at that being even an option. Surely, you have goats or any other resources you could offer up, and he went immediately to that. It’s dumbfounding.

Jim Piper: An idealist would draw a sword and tell your wife and girls to draw swords, and the angels to draw swords. And whomever, the cook, the banker, the candle stick maker. Maybe spill enough blood to make them back off. That’s what an idealist would do. That’s what an altruistic– You get to a point where no—you can’t surrender anybody in there.

Self-Preservation and Human Nature

Now, humanism—humanism would throw the old guy over. Right? Yeah, so I don’t know. It’s interesting. We learn a lot about ourselves in high moments of stress. I wonder if, later in Lot’s life, if he ever rewound that and thought about it. He had the ability to do that. I don’t know if he did. Now, he did get in his DNA some of Abraham’s self-preservation skills, if you will. Self-preservation is what I’m trying to say, skills.

Winston Harris:  Where you triggered a thought for me with the evil lurking in men and your response to Proverbs. I feel like I have a similar thought when it comes to “pray for your enemies” and how we ought to treat our enemies. I think the word “enemy” has this word picture of grand opposition. How many of us live a life that’s even worth grand opposition?

Surely, the Spirit of God is not expecting every single Christian and every single person to have such an assignment and such a ministry that man, there’s all these enemies that I have. I think about when the guy asked Jesus, “Who’s my neighbor?” I kind of think about that: “Who’s my enemy?”

Finding Ourselves in Lot’s Story

Even get to that space of like, we believe this really happened, right? The bible is often painting these grand pictures about subtle truths and subtle realities in our Christian life. That’s where my mind also goes—can we find Lot? Can we find ourselves in Lot? Are there subtle moments where we’re willing to sacrifice things we say we would never sacrifice? These things that are so pure and so precious. But when we get into a circumstance we didn’t plan for and there’s a lot of pressure, we find ourselves making decisions we would never make otherwise.

Jim Piper: Yeah, it’s scary to know what we’re capable of doing under great pressure, for sure. And we certainly approach these scriptures with humility. If Lot walked into the studio right now, I think I wouldn’t have enough confidence to say, “What were you thinking? Help me understand that.” But I would probably, honestly, be more curious—because I wasn’t there.

The Limits of What Scripture Tells Us

We’re reading this text and you get the feeling of this is like 30 seconds, five minutes, but who knows how long this was going on? Who know? Without humility—if Lot were to walk in here and we gave him a microphone and he joins us, he says, “All right, dudes, let me tell you what was happening here. Yes, I regret that. Yes. But did you know this?”

The scripture doesn’t always tell us everything we want to know. It’d probably just be too thick. We’d never get through it.

The Mob’s Response and God’s Mercy

Jim Piper: So Lot’s trying to negotiate with this mob. I think that’s funny in and of itself. The angels take over in verse 9.

“The angles said, ‘Stand back,’ they shouted.” I’m in verse 9, by the way.

“‘Who do you think you are?” Oh, I’m sorry—that’s not the angels. This is the mob. “‘Stand back,’ they shouted. ‘Who do you think you are? We let you settle among us, and now you are trying to tell us what to do. We’ll treat you far worse than those other men.’ They lunged at Lot and began breaking down the door. But the two angels–”

This is where I thought it was. “But the two angels reached out and pulled Lot in and bolted the door. Then they blinded the men of Sodom so they couldn’t find the doorway.” What did that look like?

Verse 12: Then the angels turn to Lot—perhaps Lot and his family. “Do you have any other relatives here in the city?” the angels asked. “Get them out of this place—sons-in-law, sons, daughters, or anyone else—for we will destroy the city completely.”

I really love this picture of God’s grace, Winston, because the conversation in the previous chapter had to do with faithful people, good people. That is not a qualifier here. He’s basically saying, “Who do you care about?” Whether they are God-fearing or not—go get them.

“For we will destroy the city completely. The stench…” Here we go. Now we get a hint. “The stench of the place has reached the Lord, and He has sent us to destroy it.”

The Stench of Brokenness Reaches God

Winston Harris: What a word picture. It reached God. The brokenness. I’m in the NLT. The outcry is what mine says. I think about Exodus—the cries of God’s people reached Him. That’s when He meets Moses. He calls Moses in the burning bush. Once again, this picture of grace and mercy mixed in with judgment. This circumstance warranted a response from God.

Jim Piper: That’s insightful. Almost like what you were saying—that the angels’ presence propositioned a response. The character of God—we are testing God when we do whatever we want to do and He does nothing. Wow.

Winston Harris: I think if we’re honest—unconsciously, and for sure, there are those of us that consciously live like God is soft. “If He does exist, where is He?” Right? You see that on the cross. People mocking God: “If You’re who You say You are, come down and save Yourself.” No—you do not understand the totality of who He is. His grace and His mercy, yes, but also He is fully God and He responds to darkness.

Testing God and the End of Patience

Jim Piper: I’m only smiling because I thought of my family vacation. My family vacation.

Winston Harris: That’s a hard shift.

Jim Piper: No, just wait. We’re talking about testing God and the stench to where enough is enough—kind of like that Popeye cartoon. I don’t know if you watched Popeye, or if it was even on TV when you were a kid. I didn’t think it was the greatest cartoon, but sometimes that’s all that was on. Once Popeye got beat up enough, or once the evil was big enough, he would eat a can of spinach and become Popeye the Sailor Man and beat everybody up.

Well, I was the eldest of four. Back in the day when we’d go on vacation, we would drive in a station wagon or a Volkswagen bus, and we’d be driving across the country. Most of the cars in those days didn’t have air conditioning. That was an option that you would put in your car when you went to go buy one.

Dad’s Patience and God’s Judgment

You know, sometimes it’s miserable. We’d all be sitting on the same bench seat in the back, poking each other, fighting for space. Mom would say, “Knock it off, kids.” Dad would say, “Knock it off, kids.” Of course, I’m giving you the vanilla version of this. After a while, we just totally ignored our parents. Then someone starts crying or whatever.

My dad’s patience ended, once he pulled over—we all knew we were dead meat. We were dead meat. How long can you push against what God has said and what God has designed and not expect–? I mean, if there is a God and He’s not dead, it’d be pretty tempting to believe there is no God and He is dead if there were no repercussions for how we live. But we know that’s not true.

So Lot was in control. Then the mob was in control. And then the angel stepped in, the ambassadors of heaven stepped in. And that’s where the story takes that hard, hard right turn. Anything else you want to say before we continue reading?

Winston Harris: Yes, let’s jump in.

Jim Piper: All right, so let’s see. So Lot rushed out to tell his daughter’s fiancés, “Quick, get out of the city! The Lord is going to destroy it!” But the young men thought he was only joking. So they were watching Monday Night Football or something, and Lot comes busting down the door: “We got to get out of here! God’s going to destroy Sodom!”

Hesitation and the All-In Proposition

Verse 25. At dawn the next morning, the angels became insistent. So that mob must have blindly disbanded. Some may still be out in the streets looking for their place.

Winston Harris: I can imagine Lot is just running by them and he’s like, “I hope they don’t hear me.”

Jim Piper: It’s like Marco Polo. Do you know what that is? Marco Polo?

Winston Harris: Yeah.

Jim Piper:  It’s really a game of Marco Polo outside of the water.

All right, so at dawn the next morning, the angels became insistent. “Hurry,” they said to Lot, “Take your wife and your two daughters who are here. Get out of here right now, or you will be caught in the destruction of the city.”

I wonder how many of us get caught because we’re in the wrong place—in our mind, in our heart, physically. That’s something I wrote in the margin of my Bible. Proverbs tells you not to walk by certain neighborhoods—not to walk by, to not even walk by it. James tells you to run from evil, run from temptation.

Lot’s Hesitation and God’s Mercy

Verse 16. When Lot still hesitated, you referred to that before we started the podcast, I think, or at the front end. I don’t remember.

When Lot still hesitated—here again we see the grace of God. The angels seized his hand and the hands of his wife and two daughters and rushed them to safety outside the city. I think we can literally and accurately say they dragged them out, for the Lord was merciful.

“Run for your lives!” the angels warned. “Do not stop anywhere in the valley, and don’t look back! Escape to the mountains or you will die.”

I’m going to pause there because apparently Lot still isn’t listening. Then he wants to get into a discussion about it. Any thoughts about that section there?

Winston’s Reflection on Lot’s Mindset

Winston Harris: I just think Lot still hesitating is kind of almost a comical statement after everything that has already ensued up until this point. What would cause you to question or hesitate anything that’s happening other than you need to live? It’s pretty clear what needs to happen, yet Lot still can’t resist. And I think you mentioned this, that he kind of has one foot in, one foot out. He seems to be wanting to serve the angels and wants to follow maybe Abraham—wants to kind of follow in his footsteps.

There are reference points that maybe Lot is wanting to be that type of man, but then there still seems to be this pull, this draw, this entertaining the city, entertaining this place, trying to barter with the mob, trying to negotiate this situation. It’s pretty clear this situation is far beyond negotiation, but he’s still trying to figure out, “Wait, how can I make all this work? How can I still make this a win-win?” And it’s like, there’s no wins here. There’s a decision.

I just think that that hesitation is really interesting because there’s nothing to hesitate about.

Jim’s Principle of Being All-In

Jim Piper: The thing I thought about was what I think is a universal principle. I think that principle is grafted into creation. The whole Council of Scripture would back it up and teach it. And that is: to be successful at anything, it’s an all-in proposition. It’s a discriminating process, where sometimes you’re not choosing between evil and good.

It’s pretty obvious that Lot is—sometimes it’s saying, I’ve just got too many things in my life, and when I do an inventory of them, none of them individually are evil in and of themselves. But they are encumbrances. They are weight, they are obstacles. They are unrealistic for me, a humanoid, given the years I have and the abilities that I have. What does God require of me? Why am I here? And focus on that.

I was just following your narrative where I think you’re right. He wanted it all, he still wanted to keep his land. He didn’t want to give up his land. But his land was going to be destroyed because of its proximity to Sodom, so he became homeless in that sense. That hesitation. That hesitation.

Addition by Subtraction and Conforming

Winston Harris: As you’re talking real-time, I’m thinking about: oftentimes, do we hesitate because we’ve invested in places that are too close to the line? That we’ve spent our time or our energy or our thought or we’ve committed to things that have put us too close to the line. And now we have to backtrack. Now we have to start over. I’m kind of close, but if I can just manage this manage this.

Oftentimes people say, “If I can just get through this season.” The season is over.

Jim Piper: I’ve never said that. I’m just joking, everybody.

Winston Harris: But it is that hesitation where you know you probably need to make a change, but you don’t. You’re still trying to negotiate with this reality instead of taking action. And because the Lord’s merciful, he drags us out of there. He gives us the opportunity to escape if we choose to take it.

Value of Scripture Conversations

Jim Piper: Yeah, it’s amazing what we get out of Scripture when we get to be in this kind of environment. This is kind of how I see conversations going on in the temple area with the early Jews. They would go to synagogue and then they would kind of gather in a place like this where we’re doing more of the exposition. I don’t think there was a lot of exposition that went on in the temple. It was more structured, but outside of the temple, there was a lot of discussion: What did we learn from it?

And I really enjoy this. This is different than teaching. Some of the things that you’ve said today I didn’t think about, and it just adds richness if you can be in a place or even those of you listening, I keep coming back to tell others about it, and participate in a way that is comfortable for you so that you can think about what’s being said. And who knows what ideas you come up with and how you relate it to your life.

Lot’s Continued Hesitation and Zoar

So in verse 18, even though the angels are jumping up and down, doing backflips, screaming—I can just see the veins, I’m assuming angels have veins—I have no idea. I’m just seeing the veins popping out of the angel’s neck saying, “Run, run, run! Don’t look back!” And then what’s the response? “Hold on, guys.”

This is Lot: “Oh no, my lords, please.” Lot begged, “You have been so kind to me and saved my life, and you have granted me such mercy. But I cannot go to the mountains. Disaster would catch up to me there and I would soon die. See, there is a small village nearby.” Key, nearby. “Please let me go there instead. Don’t you see how small it is? Then my wife will be saved.”

The angel says—and I was a little shocked on this—”All right,” the angel said, “I will grant your request. I will not destroy that little village.” So I think the bomb radius, if you will, was probably going to consume that village. That’s what I’m kind of gathering by the angel’s response.

Zoar is Spared, Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed

“But hurry, for I can do nothing until you are there.” In other words, it’s going to stop right at the front gate. From that time on, that village was known as Zoar. The sun was rising as Lot reached the village. Then the Lord rained down fire and burning sulfur from the heavens on Sodom and Gomorrah.

I wonder how that started. Did it start as a sprinkle rain, and then a downpour, and then hail, and then all of a sudden it did something they’d never seen before—like a volcanic eruption? Was there a volcano in the area? Or was this just something unheard of? Was it lightning strikes? My mind gets all crazy.

Verse 25: He utterly destroyed them, along with the other cities and villages of the plain, eliminating all life—people, plants, and animals alike.

Lot’s Wife: A Representation of the Heart

Then we get to this weird text in verse 26: But Lot’s wife looked back as she was following along behind, and she became a pillar of salt.

I think what a lot of people misread in that verse is probably the way I did when I was younger. What I assumed at this point was that while they were running, the thunder began and the lightning struck, and however you’re visualizing this, that would cause you to turn around and go, “Whoa!”

But when you read this carefully, it’s interesting where Moses decided to put this verse. You would think, in context, he would have put it after verse 22. Something like, “But Lot’s wife didn’t make it, because on the way she looked back with a longing heart–” But because it’s put right here, and you read it too quickly, you can think, “Oh, it was all of the ruckus that was going on that caused it.” And so that doesn’t seem fair.

Verse 27 says: The next morning, Abraham was up early with his Starbucks and hurried out to the place where he had stood in the Lord’s presence. He looked out across the plain to Sodom and Gomorrah and saw columns of smoke and fumes, as from a furnace, rising from the cities there. But God had listened to Abraham’s request and kept Lot safe, removing him from the disaster that engulfed the cities on the plain.

I wonder what was going through Abraham’s mind when he looked at that. He was obviously on higher ground. Maybe not, but in my mind, he’s looking down from a slope of some sort and seeing that destruction.

Was Looking Back Really the Issue?

Winston Harris: Lot’s wife looking back—for the longest time, that’s how I’ve interpreted or saw or thought or visualized that. To your point, that it was unfair to be “punished” just for looking back, right? Like she didn’t seemingly do anything. What if she had a crick in her neck and she just happened to turn?

Jim Piper: Or curiosity? Maybe other people were running too.

Winston Harris: It just didn’t seem like being turned into a pillar of salt warranted that from her response. But once again, this exaggerated story, this exaggerated reality that is supposed to teach us this principle—maybe some people ask, “What am I supposed to learn from this?”

Recently I was reading through Luke 9, and Jesus himself says, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom.” Before that, there’s actually a story of three people that Jesus interacts with. Jesus is essentially calling them to follow him, and they all have a different reason why they will follow him ultimately—but first, they need to do other things.

Divided Commitments and Missed Priorities

Ultimately, it becomes relationship. One guy wants to say goodbye to his family. Another says he wants to bury his father, but culturally, he wanted to receive the inheritance of burying his father as the firstborn son. So what sounded genuine and heartfelt was actually a motive of, “Let me be financially secure, then I’ll follow you, Jesus.” And the other one says, “I’ll follow you if it’s comfortable,” because Jesus tells him, “I have no place to lay my head. Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head.”

So my mind goes to—it wasn’t the fact that she looked back. It was a representation of what ended up probably happening in her heart.

Jim Piper: That she never left.

Winston Harris: There you go. There was a longing for what was. There was a missed priority. She was not interested in what God was doing or where she was being led. She was not, to your point, all in. So this is less about the physical looking back, and more a representation of: where was she? She was not.

Recap: Demanded Response and All-Out Effort

Jim Piper: Yeah. So once then, let’s wrap it up with a recap of maybe the big ideas. State it the way we’ve already stated them or even state it differently. And we can just kind of ping-pong back and forth as they come to us. I want to point out your point that the angel’s presence—how did you say it—required a response?

Winston Harris: It demanded a response.

Jim Piper: Yeah, demanded a response. And I think the application for us today is: this incredible story is a microcosm. I don’t want to take this too far, but it is an early picture of what was to come. That is the same thing where we have to make a decision—what we believe about Christ. Because, again, whether we realize it or not, believer, seeker, or unbeliever, we have a worldview, and we follow that worldview.

Implications and Applications

Do we serve humanity because we love humanity above all things? Or do we serve humanity because humanity was made in the image and the likeness of God? And are there instructions in how we are to serve and live among one another. I think those were some of the implications there.

While you’re thinking, I also thought of having a foot in both worlds—whatever that means. If you want to take the spiritual perspective: a foot as a believer, but a foot in the world. As you were wrapping up your thoughts in the chapter about following—”Okay, I’m going to follow, but first I have to do this.” And again, there is a high bar, but I think success in anything—success in football, keeping your yard nice, a relationship, your job—whatever it is, it takes an all-out, full-on effort.

Winston Harris: Yeah, and I think we also talked about essentially addition by subtraction. Understanding I can’t be committed to everything. I have to be committed to something and do the uncomfortable work of cutting away what needs to be cut away so that, to your point, I can find life, can find flourishing in the specific direction I’m supposed to go.

The Five-Second Rule and Picking Up Bacteria

Jim Piper: So I read a funny—I’m going to end with this illustration, and if you have something you want to end the podcast episode with, feel free. I’ll see if I can do this decently.

I read an email/article today that brought up the five-second rule. Do you know what the five-second rule is, Winston?

Winston Harris: Talking about when food hits the ground?

Jim Piper: Yeah, that’s what I’m talking about. I actually got an article about the five-second rule where apparently, we don’t have enough to study, so we’ve actually done some high-level university postgraduate scientific study to see if the five-second rule is real.

The five-second rule is that if I drop a piece of food on the ground, as long as I pick it up within five seconds, then it’s all good. Everything’s good. There’s no disease or germs or anything. Research now shows that the answer to “Is the five-second rule legit?” is: it depends.

Life Application from the Five-Second Rule

If you drop something on the tile floor, if you drop something that is slightly moist, or the floor is slightly moist, then you’re going to get bacteria on it. If you drop something that is dry in nature, or even a little bit moist on, say, a dry carpet, the five-second rule is in play. It doesn’t attract any bacteria. In other words, it takes moisture on both sides for the attraction to happen.

And believe it or not, I knew what we were going to talk about today. I thought it was a funny article in some ways because I’ve never really thought much about it. But it is analogous to—so how much contact does it take to be with the wrong people, in the wrong places, or the wrong ethics, or the wrong company—to where, no, you’re going to pick up the bacteria?

And I don’t know, that’s kind of what I see happening in Lot’s life as well as his family’s life. He, in his case, of course, it was a lot more than five seconds.

Winston Harris: That’s really good. I don’t have anything to add to that. I’m just not going to drop my food for more than five seconds, at least.

Future Discussion

Jim Piper: Well, we’re going to leave off on Genesis 19, verse 29. We’re going to pick up next time to finish the chapter and maybe proceed on to chapter 20. Taking a quick look at it, it looks like that’s very possible due to the length.

Winston Harris: If I could just put a little breadcrumb out there for what we’re about to read: what I wrote in my notes about what we’re about to read is, “A desire to conform births enemies.”

Jim Piper: Say that again?

Winston Harris: A desire to conform births enemies.

Jim Piper: Wow. That is so insightful. I’m going to repeat what you just said: A desire to conform will birth enemies. And that right there should be a big enough hook for you to come back and listen because if you want to know why the world is the way it is, we can point to some of it back in a cave. And we’ll leave it there, Winston. Thanks for joining me today on The Today Counts show.

Outro

Winston Harris: Thank you for joining us on The Today Counts Show. We got so much more planned for you so stay tuned and stay connected on Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, and subscribe on YouTube. Remember, today counts.
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