Episode 179: What Do We Do with Stories Like This? Genesis 19:30–38 Explained

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Today Counts Show Episode 179

Preview

Jim Piper: Compromise compounds. The lesson that we’re learning here is that a believer can blow it big time.

Matt Martin: It’s clear there was a pattern in Sodom and Gomorrah. There was a pattern about the culture that led them to this place. One of the ways I wrote this was: desperation is a leader. Desperation will lead you somewhere. And this is where the desperation—the desire to be like the culture, to be like what they had always known—apparently led them to this place.

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Introduction

Jim Piper: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Today Count show. Hey, the gang is all here. And if you’ve been part of the Genesis project, you know exactly what I mean. Today we have all four of us in the virtual house. We have Pastor Matt Martin, Gary Harpst, Pastor Winston Harris, and yours truly, Jim Piper.

We are in the middle of chapter, chapter 19 of Genesis. Pastor Winston and I discussed most of chapter 19, which was the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. It was a very interesting section about Abraham’s walk, literally, with God and his conversation with God. We kind of took on this idea: does prayer change God’s mind? That was an interesting discussion. I don’t know that we came to a conclusion, but it was good.

Lot’s Escape

So now we’re turning the page. Lot and his daughters, they have escaped from the city. We’ll pick it up from there. The guys will join me here in just a second. I’m looking at Genesis 19, beginning in verse 30:

It says “Afterward, after all the destruction and the fleeing, Lot left Zoar because he was afraid of the people there. And he went to live in a cave in the mountains with his two daughters. One day the older daughter said to her sister, “There isn’t a man anywhere in this entire area for us to marry, and our father will soon be too old to have children.”

Now we’ve heard that story about Abraham, but this is the first time we’re hearing that Lot is getting up there in years.

The Daughters’ Plan to Preserve Their Lineage

Verse 32:

“Come, let’s get him drunk with wine.”

So if you ever had any questions whether the water that Jesus turned into wine was grape juice or wine, here’s kind of a hint:

“Come, let’s get him drunk with wine, and then we will sleep with him. That way we will preserve our family line through our father.”

So that was the rationale.

Verse 33:

So that night they got him drunk, and the older daughter went in and slept with her father. Her father Lot was unaware of her lying down or getting up again.

I know that’s what the Bible says, but I highly question that.

Verse 34:

The next morning, the older daughter said to her younger sister, “I slept with our father last night. Let’s get him drunk with wine again tonight, and you go in and sleep with him. That way our family line will be preserved.”

So that night they got him drunk again, and the younger daughter went in and slept with him as before. He was unaware of her lying down or getting up again.

The Birth of Moab and Ben-Ammi

So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father.

I’m going to go ahead and finish this section of chapter 19.

When the older daughter gave birth to a son, she named him Moab. He became the ancestor of the nation now known as the Moabites.

When the younger daughter gave birth to a son, she named him Ben-Ammi. He became the ancestor of the nation now known as the Ammonites.

I’m going to pause and take a sip of water—or my make-believe coffee at our make-believe coffee shop.

Desperation and Cultural Influence

Lasting Impact of a Corrupt Culture

Matt Martin: One of the things that jumps out at me is the carryover from Sodom and Gomorrah, and the debauchery and cultural mindset that these girls had. They got so far away from the things of God. What we do in our humanistic thinking is: “I’m going to take care of this myself, because I’m not sure God can handle how bad this is messed up now.” What was destroyed before has really messed everything up.

As a parent, it reminds me that my children are always watching the environments that I’m in. They’re picking up and gleaning from the situations I put them in, from the places that I put them in. That carries with them. They didn’t leave the culture and debauchery of Sodom and Gomorrah in Sodom. They didn’t leave it there—they took it with them. And again, thought that, you know. I think you hear a little bit of desperation in this: “We have to preserve, so we’re going to take it into our own hands.”

As I’ve read through that multiple times—my kids are grown now—but obviously these girls were grown. That was one of the things that jumped out at me.

Desperation and Lost Reasoning

Gary Harpst: I think that desperation you mentioned is probably something—well, I know it’s something I don’t fully grasp, because in that culture, preserving the line meant property rights. Frankly, a woman’s self-worth was rooted in bearing children. There’s just so much here.

What hasn’t changed is we all have something we want so much that it blocks out our reason. In their case, it was those things. For me, maybe it’s something else. But we lose the ability to see reason, to think clearly.

The Desire to Conform

Winston Harris: The phrase that jumped out to me—I think this is in verse 31, “Like everyone else.” “There are no men left anywhere in this entire area, so we can’t get married like everyone else.” That idea—the desire to conform, the desire to be like the culture.

To Pastor Matt’s point, the culture and the way they had been trained to see these events that were unraveling—they weren’t seeing it from a godly perspective. Their desire to maintain what was—whatever the status was, the family line—just this holding on to this pattern.

When I think of the word conform, I think of Romans 12:2: “Be not conformed to the patterns of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.” There was clearly a pattern inside of Sodom and Gomorrah. There was a pattern about culture that led them to this place.

One of the ways I wrote this: desperation as a leader. Desperation will lead you somewhere. In this case, the desire to be like the culture, to be like what they had always known, apparently led them to this place that would ultimately birth those they would end up battling.

Lot’s Righteousness and Questionable Actions

Jim Piper: We can be desperate for God, or we can be desperate for something absent of faith. All of you have spoken to that.

What troubles me about this passage is—here’s what I wrote in my notes. Intellectually, I want to believe what I’m about to read. But my heart is conflicted.

I said: “Despite his flaws—that is, Lot—and the environment he lived in, Lot is called a righteous man in the New Testament.” I’m going to read that in just a second. This righteousness is attributed to his faith and relationship with God, not necessarily his moral perfection. I just struggle with that. I think it’s theologically true, but I struggle with that.

The NLT is even more brutal. It says in 2 Peter 2:7—so this is the exposition of Peter looking back, filled with the Holy Spirit, telling us the truth:

“But at the same time, God rescued Lot out of Sodom because he was a good man who was sick of all the immorality and wickedness around him.” Man, that wasn’t the picture I got. “Yes, he was a righteous man who was distressed by the wickedness he saw and heard day after day.”

The only way I can reconcile that is: the bar was so low. That’s the only place I can go is the bar was so low.

Throwing it back at you guys—just to reiterate some of the things you said—I wrote many of the same notes in the margins of my Bible. This is a passage about fear. It didn’t tell us why Lot was afraid of the people at Zoar.

What’s interesting is the angels told them to escape to the mountains in the first place.

Lot’s Compromise and Attraction to Zoar

Matt Martin: Something I find interesting on that, Jim, is if you go back to chapter 13 when they separated, Lot said—verse 10—he saw the whole plain of Jordan toward Zoar and it was well-watered.

Jim Piper: Yes, I see that.

Matt Martin: Now he’s asking the angel to go back to the place that was either comfortable or where he thought he could make it on his own. Whatever his reasoning, something about Zoar got his attention and he felt like, “I just want to go there.”

I could get a little preachy right now. Sin will take you. You won’t just get as close to sin as you can. Lot wanted to get as close to Sodom as he could—on the way in, and even on the way out. Even in a place of deliverance, he’s still like, “How close to Sodom can I be, but yet be away?”

We’re probably stretching the text a little when we do that. But there’s something there. The name Zoar literally means “little” or “insignificant.” It’s the literal meaning around it. But obviously it was not that in Lot’s life. Maybe it’s that little thing we consider insignificant that pulls us away from the things of God.

He was drawn to that on the front end of the destruction and on the back end of the destruction. It’s the place he asked to go to. He was instructed to run to the mountains, and yet he pleaded with the angel and said, “How about I just stop off over here?”

Compromise and the Slippery Slope

Jim Piper: I don’t think you’re drawing outside the lines. If you read a little further in that text, it says, “like the Lord’s Garden.” Must’ve been super green and beautiful and all of that. Whatever it was why he wanted to go there, we know it was at least because it was in proximity of what he know and was comfortable with.

I don’t think you’re being preachy or weird because I wrote down a very similar thing. So I wrote down: “Compromise compounds.” I think that the lesson we’re learning here is a believer can blow it big time. Just because we’re believers doesn’t mean we are protected from our wayward ways. If we take on a wayward way, we can get so far from home that we’ve lost ourselves.

Struggling With Theological Tension

I don’t want to say God loses us—I know there are all kinds of views in all this—but I’m not one of those who believes that.

But it is a humbling thing. And again, another troubling thing for me is the scripture does say here pretty clearly that he was unaware. I just don’t get that. If you’ve ever had too much to drink, you know that you can—well, they call it truth serum, silliness, fake courage, all of that kind of stuff. And I suppose some people can lose consciousness and get crazy. I’ve never experienced anything like that. I wonder why it’s there.

I’m just being honest with God and before you guys. If we have interpreted these two phrases right, that’s the next thing I want to do if I have time: go back and study these two in the original. See if I can find a hole here. But it’s not like he didn’t know where it would take him if he’s drinking with his daughter. That seems weird too.

Unhealthy Family Dynamics

But if you use psychological terms, maybe that family was so codependent that it was already weird to begin with. As you know, on the scale of relational health, there is an independence that is unhealthy, and then there is a dependence that is unhealthy. Not that we could make it perfect, but there’s something called interdependence that kind of splits the difference and is closer to what God has designed. We’re supposed to be dependent only upon God. And of course, independence has good sides and bad sides as well.

More Questions Around the Daughters’ Virginity

Winston Harris: What’s kind of odd too is if you go back earlier in the chapter, these are the same daughters that he’s willing to sacrifice, and they were virgins, which makes this a little even more weird. Just another layer of weirdness. They had never had sex up until this point.

Jim Piper: I think that scripture can have somebody say something that isn’t true. Here’s what I mean: I think it was Lot said that they’re virgins, right? Well, as far as Lot knew. I believe the Bible is that pure in its original. This is what Lot said. The Bible never verifies that that’s true or not.

You’re laughing at me, Winston, but you should know me enough by now. I got something wrong upstairs, but that is how I think. I don’t think it contradicts Scripture just because Lot said it. The accuracy is that Lot said it. It’s not that they were virgins. But were they virgins?

The Truth in the Bible vs. Truthfulness of Characters

Matt Martin: I heard something along this line the other day. It was talking about Job and said the same idea—that everything in Scripture is true, but not necessarily truth, which is kind of what you’re saying. Job did say, “Though He slay me, yet will I praise Him.” Lot did say that. Those are true statements. We’re on a razor-thin edge right here, but anyway.

Jim Piper: We are, because where I want to be in this as well is where this is Lot’s testimony that was carried out. I’m not buying it. Lot, I’m not buying it.

Gary Harpst: Just to challenge you a little, Jim, remember the story of Jacob and Leah?

Jim Piper: Yes.

Gary Harpst: He wasn’t drunk, and he didn’t even know who he slept with until–

Jim Piper: Yeah, that’s true.

Gary Harpst: There’s something going on here that we don’t understand.

Winston Harris: It was really dark.

Matt Martin: We need more context. Come on, Gary. We don’t have enough context.

Gary Harpst: Yeah, for sure.

Moral Confusion and Cultural Distance

Jim Piper: Now that you mention that, Gary, that is another troubling passage for me. I’m going, “What is wrong with these people?”

Gary Harpst: Yes. Something to look forward to. I do think there’s stuff we don’t understand here because we didn’t live in that time. For me, it makes my skin crawl to think of crawling in bed with my mother. And here are these girls—both of them. So it goes back to kind of what you said, Winston. There was something here that was more important to them that it was more important than God Himself. We can’t fathom how that could be.

Winston Harris: Also, where did the wine come from?

Jim Piper Jr: Great question. Zoar.

Winston Harris: Yeah, you kind of have to try to filter through—how long had they been there? Was this right on the heels of them coming from Sodom and Gomorrah, and they somehow thought to grab the wine?

Jim Piper: The first thing they built was a wine cellar. They liked to entertain guests with fine wine and cheese.

Winston Harris: They prioritized that wine. Somehow they–

Matt Martin: Fire is falling from heaven, and I’m going to make sure I grab the bottle of wine.

Gary Harpst: There’s another principle here that Satan uses all the time. The girls were savvy enough to know they could never get their father to do this without somehow blinding him. And in that, Satan’s approach the tactic becomes: how can I get somebody to do what I want them to do? I figure out a strategy that makes them not really realize what they’re doing.

Lot’s Passivity and Generational Consequences

Mental Numbing and Leadership Passivity

Jim Piper: That makes sense too. It’s kind of like when you watch the old Western cowboy movies and a guy is about to get his tooth pulled. He chugs down six shots of whiskey, not just to numb it, but to numb it mentally. That’s where you’re numbing it. You’re numbing it mentally.

While we’re still on the negative here—because there is a little bit of a turn for the positive toward the end—we’re going to have to work at it. The other thing I thought of is Lot seems to be a passive father, a passive leader. I’m deducting that from putting together the puzzle pieces. He went along with Abraham.

People who always choose the best in the company of their loved ones and don’t give up their best seat tells me something about the person. Not once or twice but if it’s a common thing, where you’re always kind of getting yourself in the front of the line—in leadership talks, we say, “Leader eats last.” I don’t think he’s a “leader eats last” kind of guy.

What I’m saying here is passivity has generational consequences. I don’t think you always see it immediately. Sometimes you see parents that are very passive, and their kids seem okay. Just stick with that for a few generations and see what happens. In our Western culture, we do have a tit-for-tat mentality. We think if we do this, we get that. Well, I think it’s a principle—more of an agricultural principle than a quick fix kind of thing. It takes seasons, it takes generations.

Rationalizing Unthinkable Decisions

Unfortunately, and frankly, Matt, you already shared it. Gary, you did too. Well, all three of you did, that these girls grew up watching a lot of stuff. So it taught them what was okay. Maybe that’s why I used the slang. The bar must have been pretty low. Thank goodness he’s not in Hebrews 11 and the heroes of the faith.

Matt Martin: Jim would draw the line.

Jim Piper: That would really freak me out.

Gary Harpst: To your point about him being passive, I’ve often thought, if Sodom was such a despicable place, why did he stay? And that itself is a form of passivity.

Jim Piper: Yeah. There’s probably all kinds of rationalizations that he came up with. He had to rationalize kicking his daughters out, or throwing his daughters out in the crowd to make that decision. We talked about that before.

Yeah, so before we hit record, everybody—both Gary and Matt—were trying to bail on us. They didn’t really want to talk about this section, and now we know why. What do we say? What can we say other than commentate on this really sad set of events?

But as weird as it is, let’s read again these last couple verses, tear those apart a little bit, and call it a day.

It says, “When the older daughter gave birth to a son, she named him Moab. He became the ancestor of the nation now known as the Moabites. When the younger daughter gave birth to a son, she named him Ben-Ammi. He became the ancestor of the nation now known as the Ammonites.”

Redemption Amidst Consequences

Complicated Legacy of the Moabites and Ammonites

Both the Moabites and the Ammonites had a long and complicated relationship with the Israelites. Sometimes they lived in peace together, and sometimes they did not. They were not specifically, or as a nation, worshipers of Yahweh. They had their own gods—each of them different gods.

Let’s see. What else can I remember about these groups? They lived east of the Jordan, so the Israelites would have been west of the Jordan. I think it was the Ammonites that lived a little north and the Moabites south.

Redemptive Line Through Ruth

Gary Harpst: Well, the line of Christ included Ruth, right?

Jim Piper: That’s right. Ruth came from the Moabites, as you remember. And then at least part of that lineage—not all the lineage—but part of that lineage, yes, to Jesus from Ruth.

So what I was going to pitch to you guys—see what you think—is, I don’t know how God does this, but He does it. In spite of our mistakes, He does not take away the consequences of them. Thus, the Moabites and Ammonites. And yet at the same time, He brings redemption—a possibility of redemption. So both coexist at the same time, at least on this side of heaven. What do you think of that?

God’s Will and Human Choices

Gary Harpst: I’ve been rereading a book called Decision Making and the Will of God. Remember that book written many years ago?

Jim Piper Jr: Is that from the founder of Stand to Reason?

Gary Harpst: I don’t recall. It was written, I think, in the early sixties.

Jim Piper: Okay, that may predate Greg Koukl, but he wrote something very similar to that.

Gary Harpst: Anyway, here, his framework. There are things I don’t care for about that framework, but there are some things that shed insight on what you just said. He talks about this sovereign will of God, which we don’t really see. It’s Him doing stuff that He is totally in control of, but we don’t see it. And then there’s the declared will of God—things in the Word, the moral will: don’t do this, do this, here are principles to live by.

And then he talks a lot about this individual will we seek. I want God to tell me, are you going to provide an offspring here or not? Or are you going to take this job or not? We all have things we wish God would speak more clearly to us. And he makes the point that many times, God simply does not do that.

And we end up making decisions on our own like these people did—clearly immoral decisions. But what you just said is, in spite of all that, the mysterious God can let us suffer our own consequences and still use it for His purposes. Nothing happens outside of His providence, and it’s just really hard to grasp.

Regret and Redemption in Retrospect

Jim Piper: I’m thinking of these girls who, 20 years later, if they matured in God—I don’t know that they did—but if they did, just use our imaginations for a minute, and you were to ask them, “Do you regret what you did?” Wouldn’t their answer be yes and no?

If they matured in God, they saw their short-sightedness, and for that, they regret what could have been. But at the same time, take away their son—whom they love—that would be weird, too.

I’m sorry for my head, you guys. This is where it goes. Somebody needs to put reins on it.

Personal Story of God’s Redemption

Gary Harpst: There’s something similar in my own life. I went through a period from about 19 to mid-to-late 20s where I just went off the rails, just lived the way I wanted to, kind of like a lot of college students do.

Jim Piper: You kind of look like one of those crazy guys.

Gary Harpst: Well, unfortunately, I was. I look at that period of my life and it basically took 10 years out of my normal growing up. I sometimes think, “Well, was that good or was it bad?”

Well, it turns out I met my wife when I was 35. She was 25. And I found myself thinking, if that period had not existed, I would not be married to the woman I am. And somehow—would I say that period was good? No. But would I say He used it for good? In my life, He did, because my wife is the one for me, and the children I have.

You just look at how we have both things true at the same time. Train wrecks, things that seem so evil and wrong—and yet somehow God will– You don’t do an end run on God.

So I don’t know. It’s mysterious, and I love it that we cannot get outside of His care.

Eternal Perspective and Redeemed Memory

Jim Piper: I get weird thoughts about the new heaven and the new earth, and what I’ll know and what I don’t know. But I do believe—I don’t have any basis, I don’t have any scripture on this, the Bible doesn’t really teach us a whole lot about that place and time, if we could use that term “time”—but I do feel, it’s just a feeling, right?

Again, we’re having coffee. We’re not always teaching theology. But I don’t see God taking a big eraser and removing all my memories. Yet at the same time, because there’s going to be no tears and pain or whatever, somehow He’s going to redeem those memories or do something with them that’s just totally different than what they are now. I don’t know.

And that’s what I mean on these last couple verses. I just think there’s the redeeming factor and the consequences all going on at the same time.

Regret and Growth: A Necessary Tension

Winston Harris: Yeah, I’ve always struggled when people have said, “I don’t regret how my life has unfolded because I wouldn’t be the person that I am today.” I’m like, I don’t know that you want to go full bore with “I don’t have any regrets.” Because you could have definitely, potentially been a better person or a different person had you made different decisions.

So I think it is that paradox—the tension of, “Well, this is true where I’m currently at, and who I am is true based off of previous decisions.” But there are certain things I didn’t have to learn by doing those things or experiencing those things in which I had control of.

I think if we’re not careful, when you lean in the direction of “Don’t have any regrets,” or “I am who I am because of how my life has played out,” you give yourself a license to continue to live in ways that you don’t have to live. To experience things you don’t have to experience to “grow.”

And I don’t even think you can always justify that you’ve grown just because you’ve experienced certain things.

Humor, Honesty, and Hope

Jim Piper: I agree with you 100%. I’ve never known how to respond to that. In fact, a lot of times, I just give my stoic stare. Like, “So you’re saying this is the best version? That’s a bummer for you.” Of course, I can’t say that.

Gary Piper: You just did. I’m sure people listening are like, “Wait a minute.”

Jim Piper: I bet if you guys gave me an hour, I could come up with 50 things I should have done differently.

Gary Harpst: Well, I think where I’m coming at this may be a little different than you guys. I don’t celebrate those times. I look at how God delivered me from them. In His grace, He took something that was absolutely filthy and disgusting and used it. Would I advocate anybody to do that? No, I would not. But God’s bigger than that.

Jim Piper: Right. But in spite of it, God is redeeming it and still redeeming it. He’s not done. He’s not even done redeeming it.

Gary Harpst: That’s right. So we have a God who’s bigger than our minds. And thank God we do.

The Hope of Resurrection and Running the Race

Jim Piper: That’s our hope, right? That’s our hope. It’s beyond my imagination—whether it is God-leaning or darkness-leaning—it is beyond my imagination that God would create everything that He’s created just to watch it die. That doesn’t even logically land for me.

I don’t know how He’s going to do it. I was lifting weights with my two eldest grandsons yesterday, and we were doing this thing in front of the mirror, and I saw this old guy in front of the mirror. And I thought to myself, “How are you going to make this guy alive again?”

But if You don’t, I’m done. He’s my only hope.

Gary Harpst: Well, fortunately, He took a void—Genesis 1—darkness and void. That’s us now. He can do it.

Running the Race, Not From Death

Jim Piper: No matter how hard I try—and there’s the theological lesson, right? No matter how hard I try to keep my strength, to work on my balance, to take care of my skin, to eat right, to do whatever I’m supposed to do, it’s not going to work. In the end, it’s not going to work.

But because I’m here, and I want to run the race, that’s why I’m doing it. I have to remind myself: Is it to run from death or is it to run the race? And there’s a difference between the two.

Hey guys, yeah, that was a strange passage. As Gary said on the front end, chapter 20 is going to be next up, and it is going to pull no punches.

And then we start moving into the rest of that patriarchal foundation. And it doesn’t get boring, that’s for sure.

I’m just excited to get to the story of Joseph. That’s what I’m excited for.

Thank you, guys. Have a great day.

Gary Harpst: See you guys.

Matt Martin: Bye-bye.

Outro

Winston Harris: Thank you for joining us on The Today Counts Show. We got so much more planned for you so stay tuned and stay connected on Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, and subscribe on YouTube. Remember, today counts.
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