Episode 180: Teaching Beyond the Test: Why Mental Health Must Come First in Schools

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Today Counts Show Episode 180

Preview

Danny:
But some of these kids were the nicest, sweetest, most caring, kind kids you would ever come across. And I would have conversations with the parent. They are struggling. I struggled in school. When I would talk with the parents, I would say, “You have the battle won because you’re raising a child that is going to be a good person.”

Theodore Roosevelt quote—it was in my office—”To educate a man in mind and not morals is to educate a menace to society.”

Appreciation of our Supporters

Winston Harris: Hey, before we jump into the podcast, we want to thank all our donors and supporters who make the Today Counts Show possible. It’s through your generosity that we’re able to shape leaders through this content and this podcast. Be sure to like, subscribe, and follow wherever you find yourself coming across this content.

All right, let’s get to the podcast.

Introduction

Jim: Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Today Counts Show. I am your host, Jim Piper.

I don’t know—saying this phrase doesn’t sound right—I’m excited to talk about, and because actually, I don’t know if “excited” is the right word. Today, we’re going to—school’s about to start. School has started, and there are a lot of mental health issues that we are facing around this country, and it’s across the board. I recognize that—the young, the old. But this particular discussion has to do with education, our school systems, what the kids are facing today, what parents are facing today, what we’re all facing today, because we’re all in this together.

So, today I have gathered—here again—I think this is the third episode that we have dedicated to education in general, but really drilling down today on mental health. I think I’m going to try to keep—we might chase a rabbit here and there—but mental health is what we’re going to be talking about today.

Our Guests

So let me just introduce our guest. I have with me today Rachel Starmer. Rachel is a psychotherapist, and she specializes in trauma, and that will come into play. We’ll be talking about acute situations, chronic situations. So, Rachel, welcome. I’m glad that you’re joining us today.

Rachel:
Thank you very much. I’m glad to be here.

Jim:
And of course, if you have listened to the previous episodes, I can almost call him my co-host now—Dr. Brian Badock, who is an assistant superintendent out there in Philadelphia. Welcome back, Brian.

Brian:
Good to see you, Jim. Thank you so much. Good to see Dan with us today who’s coming up, and Rachel who’s here with us. And it’s great to be back with you again, Jim. We’ve been talking about this topic for quite some time, and it’s a continuation—and I think it needs to be. So this is good timing today.

Jim:
Good, good, good. Have you done any fishing lately, Brian?

Brian:
The weather up here in Pennsylvania has been a little bit hot. It’s a little too hot. I’ve actually been doing a little bit more biking, Jim. Getting the bike out a little bit more. The rod’s down a little bit, but just exercising, enjoying the temps. Looking forward to some fall fishing though—certainly.

Jim:
Good. Good. And then last but not least, we have Mr. Danny Fox, who just—as I understand it—recently retired as a school counselor. And you’ve got, like, 30-something years as a teacher, administrator, counselor. Did I get that right?

Danny:
Yeah. Half my career—17 years—as a teacher, and half as a school counselor. All at the elementary level, K to five.

The Origins of the Today Counts Show

Jim:
Okay. That is beautiful. Again, guys, thank you very much.

Again, for those who don’t know, my background is extremely eclectic. The first decade was in the business banking world, then I transitioned into youth ministry, police chaplain work, pastoring churches out west. And about—I’m not sure—I don’t want to do math in my head yet, so I’m just going to throw out some numbers—15 to 20 years ago, I started the Lead Today community, which is an organization dedicated to coming alongside leadership in all capacities.

The Today Counts Show was started a couple of years ago. Only got serious about it about a year ago. So anyway, that’s kind of us and where we’re at.

Mental Health & Education Focus

So here’s what I want to do, guys. I’ve prepared some questions to get us started. And the first one—and I’ve already added some attitude in it—so here it comes:

Would someone please share with us what is the definition—or is there a definition—of a mentally fit student and/or young adult? The reason why I’m a little sarcastic in that is because sometimes I wonder if it’s overdone. Sometimes I wonder if we’re paying too much attention to it, not enough attention to it. Of course, I’m pulling out the old man card, right? I drank from a garden hose—all that kind of stuff.

But what would you say is the definition of a mentally fit student or young adult?

Defining “Mentally Fit Student”

Rachel:
I’ll take a stab. I did a little research, and there is a definition of it. It was a paper done by Paula Robinson, Lindsay Oades, and Peter Caputi. They defined it as “a capacity to use resources and skills to flexibly adapt to challenges or advantages, enabling thriving.”

I thought that sounds pretty good, but I don’t think it’s quite full enough. That sounds more like cognitive fitness. I’m thinking more about emotional, mental, spiritual, relational health—which I think encompasses the capacity to know yourself and be able to express it appropriately, to be able to take the perspective of another as their own perspective, and it doesn’t have to be yours—to see the other as unique and to be able to connect relationally.

Students, young people—and probably all of us—are always growing into that. There is no “Aha, I have arrived. I have achieved that.” There is no more growth. It is a constant growing process. We are social beings. And as we are growing, we adults—particularly parents, teachers, clergy, those who work with youth—it is our job to help young people develop and grow their capacity.

Emotional Aspects of Mental Fitness

Jim:
Yeah. When I heard you read that, I wasn’t about to vomit or anything, but it did make me think—gosh, it just feels so stale. It feels so linear. I mean, it’s good for an entrepreneur, I guess. Yes, it’s good that somebody knows how to build a house or to do this or that.

But I had more of the emotional thoughts in there. I just think about even adults that I have met—their personality changes wherever their environment is, which just kind of reeks of insecurity and not understanding themselves. And that can’t be good.

I kind of expect that with little kids a little bit while they try to figure out the difference between dependency, independency, interdependency—those kinds of things.

But what I do like about the definition is the use of “skills.” Skills is a key word.

Rachel:

None of what I described or what was in that definition are things we can’t learn. We’re not born with these capacities. It’s all things that we can develop.

Observations from Elementary Education

Jim:
Danny, when you have worked with elementary school kids, I’m really curious about this because I’m sure you’ve seen a huge contrast. You’ve seen kids that seem well-adjusted, and then you’ve seen kids where you’re going, “What in the world is going on.” What have you learned about that contrast?

Danny:
There’s so much there. I thought about your question, and I kind of pulled back—almost like I’m looking down from the atmosphere, big picture kind of thing. I think to myself that kids need to be adaptable to their environment. They need to be able to work with others, negotiate with others. They need to have friendship skills—a lot of those social kinds of things.

When I look at the big picture, I just see that our society has gone in a different direction that has made it harder for young kids to be able to do those things today. That’s where I see the difficulties coming from.

Defining a Mentally Fit Student: Conflict Resolution

Jim:
Rachel’s definition might have hit on this. Maybe it was just written by people who were not so relational.

But what about conflict resolution? The recognition that conflict is normal. It seems like there’s the kid that will literally follow others off a cliff. Then there’s the kid who says, “Wait a second, this is stupid. I’m not going to do this.” And then there’s that compromising kid. Who knows how many other categories, right? I’m just making this up off the top of my head.

But do you see conflict resolution—all three of you—as something that is a very important part of what we’re talking about today? And if it’s lacking, why is it lacking? Because I just noticed, working with adults in leadership, that somewhere they skipped through life somehow believing that if there’s conflict, the whole world is coming to an end.

It’s fight or flight kind of approach, versus listening, agreeing where you can agree, all those old clichés. Is this a hill to die on—all those kinds of things.

How soon do you see that developing—or not developing—in the lives of little ones? Or is it too early to tell at that age?

Danny:
Let Rachel go first, and then I have something I want to say about it.

The Problem with Adult Monitoring

Rachel:
I think one of the difficulties is an approach that has taken hold these days that is not helping people develop healthy approaches to conflict is adult monitoring.

When I was a kid—and probably all of us—there were not adults to help us figure out how– We made up our rules. When somebody broke the rules, how to figure that out. These days, there are adults monitoring kids all the time.

So when kids get into a squabble, adults swoop in and say, “No, no, no. Let’s not do that. Be nice to each other.” Kids don’t learn how to work it out themselves and that it’s okay.

So I work with a lot of people who are very conflict-avoidant. And a lot of times, especially when I’m working with couples, their experience is, “Well, I don’t know how to do it. I never saw my parents fight.” Or their parents were the other extreme. Nowadays, it’s, “We were always told what to do.” So, we don’t know what to do. So, we have to learn.

Jim:
Go ahead, Dan. But you guys—don’t let me forget to tell you my baseball story because of what both of you brought up.

Societal Changes and the Loss of Imaginative Play

Danny:

And Rachel kind of opened the door for me there again because I’m kind of looking big picture and changes in society. Again, I’m an old guy. When I went into school counseling and I went to graduate school at East Tennessee State back in the 90s, I remember my mentor giving me advice on how to help kids, and he would have never imagined the world that we had the last half of my career with iPhones and technology and all of that, and it is truly a different world.

 Over-Structured vs. Under-Supported – A Polarized Generation

So, what Rachel was just saying, how people are conflict avoidant, kids don’t know how to work things out. I think about my first year as a teacher. I can remember kids out at recess and they would play, and these are elementary kids, third grade, fourth grade, fifth grade, and they would play imaginative games. They’re pretending that they’re dinosaurs and going around growling at each other and being invisible and different kinds of imaginative games.

But fast forward to 2012, 2013, and that wasn’t happening out at recess anymore. There were none of those imaginative kinds of games. When I talk with kids, it’s either one way or the other. Some kids have no structure and there’s nothing going on and they need a lot of help and guidance. But there’s other kids that are just so regimented that every hour of the day and everything is regimented and controlled, whether it’s from a team sport to a club or what have you.

And kids aren’t outside playing together, making up a game, creating the rules and negotiating: “That was fair,” “No, it was out,” or that kind of thing. They’re not having those interactions. They’re not doing conflict resolution. That’s why at my job I had to do a lot of that teaching in the school—how to have conflict resolution—because they were not doing that in their regular lives.

Conflict as a Normal Part of Life

Jim:

Well, I think you guys are probably discerning where I’m coming from. I’m just thinking that if some of the results of what we’re seeing today is this inability to not just have conflict resolution skills but to recognize that getting up every day is conflict. I mean conflict is normal. It’s just part of our lives.

The story I was going to tell you is because I did not grow up in that kind of home. So here come the old guy stories again. I was in Tennessee. I don’t know if I was in fifth grade or something like that in a little town in Tennessee. We’re on vacation to visit family and the biggest thing going on in town was a little league baseball game. Like a lot of little league, I think still today, when there’s a foul ball hit and you go get that ball you can bring it to the snack bar and get yourself whatever, an ice cream or whatever.

 Independence and Interpersonal Growth

So sure enough, there’s a foul ball and I go after that foul ball and I get there just about the time of this other boy who had a sizable advantage. Next thing I know, we’re in a scuffle. I don’t know that I would call it a fight, but I’d call it certainly a scuffle. We were getting dirty. I probably had a scab on my elbow. We were going at it. As I looked around, there was a circle of boys and girls watching. To my surprise, one of the spectators was my dad. And I remember thinking to myself, “What the heck? Why is my dad just standing by?”

And I don’t even remember whether I got that ball or not, believe it or not. I think because I was so taken back by that. I think my dad, whether he realized it or not, raised me to be probably more on the independent side than anything else. Maybe that’s affected some of my interpersonal skills as I have gotten older. But that’s the one thing I’d like us to keep in the background as we talk about conflict.

Changing Childhood & Imagination

Jim:
Let me take another step. We talked about this offline, I think it was last week. What I did with you guys is I made you go back to 1970-something when I was revisiting my anxieties, and I made a list of some things.

A Step Back in Time – Revisiting 1970s Anxiety

I remember as a young teenager, I had anxiety triggers that were there because I had concerns over the Cold War. I was in classes where we were actually talking about government and politics and civics I think it was called. A young man not lacking imagination—I literally saw these missiles pointed toward us and us toward them.

I remember in my adolescent faith praying to God. I was praying, “God, help none of this to happen until I’m 16 so I can get my driver’s license.” Then it turned to 18—then so forth. Girls, the whole social arena.

I was short in stature, so that was an insecurity, laced with anxiety. I loved sports, so a lot of my emotions were spent on sports. School was never hard for me, but in high school, I wasn’t a very good student. I just liked having fun, working, making money. All of my assignments would be turned in at the 11th hour.

My tests I did on a wing and a prayer, just by trying to listen well in class. I was the eldest of four, and the eldest has a different kind of anxiety and expectations.

One thing I did well is I didn’t let the world tell me what was next. So I didn’t have the “what’s next” anxiety, but I did have the “oh goodness, I’m all by myself here in what’s next.”

But there’s nothing on my list about social media, nothing about helicopter parents. How does my childhood anxiety contrast with what you guys have seen students go through today? And let’s throw the parents in there too.

Anxiety in Youth & Cold War Memories

Brian:
Jim, I want to just ask you this question. Who did your assignments back then? Did you do your assignments? Who did you copy off of on that desk?

Jim:
No. My mom would get so upset with me because I would never bring books home. This isn’t anything to brag about, but I was one of those students who was an audio learner, a visual learner. And if I studied, oh my goodness…

My GPA wasn’t anything to write home about, but yeah, I was able to fake it, I guess.

Brian:
Let me throw this out to the group. Listening to what Rachel and Danny said, and listening to your story, Jim, I want to talk about profiles. You talk about what does a profile look like of a student today, or a young adult, or someone in secondary education.

You just gave a good glimpse into your life of what your profile was like. Your parents helped you establish your profile. And what you described, I kind of have the same ideas of who Jim was back then.

With profiles, parents today have to identify who their kids are. Who is in the household with them? What is their child’s profile?

Like you, like Dan, like Rachel—we didn’t have the technology, we didn’t have the things going on today. We did similar things in our backyards.

I’m the youngest of four boys, but we leaned on paradigms. A paradigm is like a point of reference that’s like bumpers on the bowling lane. Things such as justice, care, critique—those help keep us in line.

The Rise of Artificial Intelligence as a New Paradigm

What we’re seeing now is parents’ inability to profile their kids and identify them. Anything goes today. Rachel’s definition is textbook and helpful, but it has changed so many times it may not even be applicable because we’re in a different family structure.

A fourth paradigm I believe is coming in to help bumper kids and help them make decisions is artificial intelligence. AI is going to be that new paradigm. Students today can go on technology, spend time on screens, and identify a problem and come up with a solution—not on their own, but delivered through AI.

Back to your story. Back then, the intelligence you had was, “Okay, I want that ball. I guess I have to fight for it.” That’s how it was. It’s not like that anymore. We’re in a completely different time.

I think that’s important for parents to think about. We miss the old days, but the paradigms coming into families now are not going to be human connections. They’re going to be artificial. That will determine how you make decisions, lead your life, live your life. For some it’s fortunate, for some it’s unfortunate.

Are Kids Learning to Think for Themselves?

We’re seeing that dramatic shift. In my opinion, we’re losing the human being. We’re losing the art in teaching because we’re losing connection. That’s something to consider when we look at profiles and when families look at their children getting ready for school—how is your child making decisions? Where are they going for those decisions? Who’s helping them?

Are they resilient? Can they self-regulate? Or is it chaotic, anxious, depressing?

That’s how I relate to what you just said, Jim. What a time machine—when we were kids, how we did things, and how different it is now. Even emotionally and spiritually, families and kids have really changed.

Testing Pressures & Creativity Lost

Jim:
You know, when we—let’s go back to vacation. When we were on vacation, we’d be in that VW bus without air conditioning. Or that station wagon with the paneling on the side.

As we would roll into one of the towns to stay the night, we would roll slowly through the one-lane town, looking for neon signs that said vacancy. In some of the more popular areas, we would see no vacancy, no vacancy.

When we finally saw a motel that said vacancy, there were cheers in the car. It was analog. A different day.

Now, nobody does that. I’m not sure there are vacancy signs anymore. Maybe on Route 66. I don’t know.

Technology, Imagination, and the Future of Leadership

But when I look at the convenience and all the things that technology does, I do think there’s an irony. You guys were talking about imagination, and it’s funny that you mentioned that because the working title of my next book is Reimagining Leadership or The Reimagined Leader.

Chapter one is basically about “where did imagination go?” I’m talking about adults in problem-solving situations. Everybody wants to know the process, the best practice. But best practices all have a shelf life.

I believe once something becomes a best practice, after some time it starts being questioned because something else begins to replace it.

I’m scratching my head trying to understand what’s good about it, what’s bad about it. I’m mostly afraid of AI, then excited about AI, but as I’ve encountered it, I’ve thought, “This is pretty cool.” Then on the other hand, I’ve seen garbage in, garbage out.

So I’m trying to think about my grandkids ten years from now. Here’s one thing that confuses me: it seems there are more 16-year-olds without driver’s licenses now than ever before.

It’s like a conveyor belt. Young people are just on a belt, not even moving their feet. There’s ambition missing. They get hired for frontline work, and when you experience them in training—if there is training—all those trainers need to be fired. What’s missing is human connection and communication.

Where this is going: we’re talking about mental health, reaching for symptoms, but I don’t think we understand why they’re struggling.

The Shift in Education and Its Long-Term Impact

I’m going big picture again. When I think about my career—34 years in education as an elementary teacher and guidance counselor—I remember when I would see problems happening with elementary school kids, I would think, “Oh my gosh, what’s this going to be like when they get to high school?”

Sure enough, our high school was looking for help. We were hiring agency counselors to come in because our school counselors were overloaded. I was seeing it with young kids as society was changing.

Two things stand out: one is electronics and smartphones, the other is No Child Left Behind and the push for standardized testing. Everyone was going to attain a certain level, be taught in the same way, very data-driven. It stomped out the art of teaching.

It made teaching into a science where we compare everybody to everybody else. At the elementary level, a seven-year-old, a nine-year-old, a ten-year-old—they need to be creative, expressive, to find what they’re good at.

But our whole education system was compressing everyone into the same avenue. It stifled creativity for both teachers and kids. Gone were the days of reading a book like Shiloh.

When I taught Shiloh, we talked about the moral question—was it right to steal the dog? We learned about West Virginia, the culture there. We built dioramas, did plays, debated whether to keep the dog or not.

All of that was washed away because we had to meet standards. No more of that.

How did that happen?

The Commercialization of Education

Jim:
How did that happen? It smells like money. It smells like business. Now is where the Jim comes out. That really bothers me.

My daughter doesn’t teach anymore. She would have said it differently, but it had a lot to do with not being able to teach kids how to think anymore. What the text says is what the text says.

No Child Left Behind – Bipartisan Blame

And not to get political, but both sides are pointing fingers, and they’re both in it together. No Child Left Behind—everybody blamed George W. Bush, but it was created by Ted Kennedy. Republican and Democrat. Both sides pushed it.

Was it for testing companies? I don’t know. But it changed education.

Teachers were caught in the system. Education changed drastically. Not only did we focus so much on math and reading because those were tested, but we lost science and social studies. We weren’t learning who we were. We weren’t learning our past.

Brian:
Yeah. You’re firing me up, Danny.

Rachel:
I’d like to share a story.

Brian:
You better do it quick, Rachel, because I’m getting heated.

Rachel:
My son—everyone in my family really—we’re all different learners. Thankfully, I grew up in a different school that tried different approaches, so the fact that I couldn’t spell was fine. My language arts were strong, so I was encouraged.

But my son—he would write these beautiful, enthusiastic things and get a zero because they didn’t fit the format. So he said, “I’m not doing it anymore.” This was in second grade.

That devastated him. He saw the system and decided, “I’m not going to play by this system.” It created a lot of tension for him about why to participate. It affected how he felt about school for a long time—until he got teachers who said, “You have a lot to say. Please say it. I’m not interested in your format.”

The Crisis in Public Education and What’s at Stake

Jim:
Brian and I have talked about this. Danny, you brought up testing. Dr. Kristen Meyer, who’s been on this show, also got bent out of shape about it. For those listening, it may sound like we’re just complaining, but give us time—we’re questioning everything, and it’s about time.

I asked Brian last time, “Is it too late for public education?” He didn’t respond with enthusiasm, but he said he didn’t believe it’s too late. There’s still a chance—because of conversations like this that go beyond smashing teachers.

When parents disengage, business/politics drives the system, and teachers get smashed. That’s how I see it.

My neighbor left elementary education because of this. My daughter left. And my church is full of former teachers.

Two weeks ago, we did a back-to-school prayer blessing for children, teachers, administrators, and homeschool parents. We didn’t complain, but we prayed specifically because this is a mountain to climb.

We’ve got more unusual schools now than ever—some horrible, some good. Technology is ushering in more change.

Back to Rachel’s point: I had wood shop, metal shop. I learned great things. There have been seasons in my life where I asked, “What was that even about? Did I grow?”

Mental Health Screenings & Post-COVID Shortages

Jim:
Can you explain that a little bit? What is that exactly? A survey or—

Brian:
Well, I think the clinicians that I have—we got—I’m going to bounce to them. But really what it is, it’s a tool you can use in education to do a screening, to see if there are any red flags.

I’m sure Danny’s very familiar, Rachel, you’re probably familiar with screening. But those things come with a cost. There’s a cost to train, implement, and figure out who’s going to do them. How do you interpret the data and the results?

And again, it goes back to what Danny was saying—what’s the why behind some of the evaluations and the testing we have. So now we have another proposal coming a couple of years down the road, trying to figure out what’s going on with our younger generation—anxiety, depression, trauma, things like that.

I just read about this on Monday. It’s being proposed. Parents need to be cognizant and aware because you may or may not agree, and you may or may not need to give your permission for your child to participate.

If they’re screening, all they have to do is cover all and say, “Hey, we’re going to screen this year for mental health. Let us know if you don’t want your child in it.” That’s a way to get around getting permission.

So I would bounce back to Rachel and Dan to see what they think about where we are, the potentials post-COVID, and the impact we’re seeing with shortages. Parents are getting more involved, and we’re seeing cyber education numbers going up. They dropped a little after COVID, but not back down to pre-COVID numbers, because that option offers more than brick-and-mortar schools today.

Screening and Support: A Cultural Gap

Jim:
And Rachel and Danny, when you comment, also speak on this mental health screening point. I’ll be frank—it scares me to death.

When I was in Pennsylvania, I would go into a middle school. The guidance counselor identified certain students who needed more attention. I had a group with some at-risk kids.

What I see—whether you do screening or not—is that there needs to be more support. There’s not enough support for helping kids and families thrive.

Our culture doesn’t allow much time or space to be a person, to have emotions, to experience and understand them.

I looked briefly at Illinois, which came out saying they’d screen from third grade and up. My first thought was, “How on earth are you going to do that? How will you respond to the need? How will you back that up?”

The Challenge of Defining Mental Health Standards

Brian:
You hit me with something, Rachel. Let me throw this up before I lose the thought. Going back to profiles: how do we create a baseline or standard in something like Illinois? What is the line of “okay, you’re good” versus “you’re not good”?

I agree it’s a sticky wicket. Who’s coming up with this? Why? Are we throwing good money at bad ideas?

Rachel:
I think there’s a desire—kids need help, all of us need help. Somebody thought this was an idea. But why not have a class? Take time where we actually teach skills.

Now that AI is coming out, they’re saying these skills might be really good for students to learn—communicating, negotiating, learning about emotions. Because AI can’t do that well.

Groups are wonderful for this. Maybe headed by a therapist, maybe not. But it’s a way for kids to work on these issues.

Danny, your thoughts?

Testing and Real-Life Constraints

Danny:
Let me go back to testing for a moment. I worked with wonderful teachers, and I came from the classroom, so I had a good relationship with my faculties. But there was always the concern that if I was pulling students, they’d miss content—because of PSSAs, the Pennsylvania State Assessments.

So I often saw kids over lunch or at other times. But it was tough to pull them during academic time, because it reflected not only on the student’s score but the teacher’s as well.

In order to get kids the help they needed, I was limited. But it worked out for me because of my relationship with the faculty. For other counselors, it was very tough to get kids out of class for small groups or regular meetings.

Again, because of high-stakes testing. Do we need that in third grade? It sounds ludicrous.

I’m all for taking college entrance exams, but a fourth grade science exam? What are we doing?

From the big picture—the more local control you have, the more parents can make decisions for their community schools, the better. States can set guidelines, but the federal government shouldn’t dictate everything. The closer you are to the kids, the better.

Mental Health Challenges: A Broader Cultural Shift

Jim:
Here’s what I’ve heard so far, pulling from all three episodes. We’re asking: what are kids struggling with in mental health today that’s different from what I did?

Testing is clear. But it’s not just kids—it’s teachers, parents, administrators. I’m not saying tests are bad, but what we’re talking about smells off. Goals are about what, but they don’t take us to moral places if the why is wrong.

Social media—that’s obvious. We’ve talked about it before. Parenting—just a mess. I was a helicopter parent. But now there are parents everywhere, always hovering.

I put down “rescuing parents.” Danny said if we keep it local and parents are involved, we avoid the argument of “who’s smarter, parents or teachers?” It’s gotten divisive when it should be teamwork.

Board meetings gone crazy—it blows my mind. It brings me back to little league days when things would get out of control.

COVID didn’t change anything, but it accelerated everything. A lot of trust has been broken down in our nation because of COVID. Nobody even wants to talk about it.

We also talked about how institutions are handling equity and inclusivity issues—like signs on restrooms. People get mad at me, but to me, love and compassion doesn’t mean I surrender common sense.

It’s hard to give sound bites. There’s so much to talk about there.

Standardization and the Loss of Human Connection

Rachel, I know you and other therapists—I always steal free sessions from my friends—but what I don’t trust is the standardization of things that can’t be locally governed. That scares me.

Rachel:
Oh, I totally agree with that. You can see it in the standardization of counseling education.

Standardization is often a mask for something evil. We have to pay attention.

Before you change the subject, Jim, let me ask you guys: I asked AI, “Are there irreplaceable human qualities?” Here’s what I got.

Irreplaceable human qualities, according to AI in 2025:

Moral judgment and wisdom
Empathy and compassion
Creativity and imagination
Relationship and trust building
Purpose and meaning making
Resilience and faith
Moral imagination

Jim:
At this point in the life of AI, there seems to be a place for humans. Thank goodness.

But honestly, I was closing my eyes, waiting to see what would pop up—something like, “That hasn’t been proven yet.” Because AI is based on what humans created.

We can set the narrative of what AI can or can’t do. That’s where it gets dangerous. We can control the traits we build in, but that may alter how we live our lives, make decisions, and resolve conflict.

The Human Soul vs. AI: A Theological Reflection

Jim:
Yeah. And you know, a basic theology class will teach you that the soul—if you believe in the soul—is made up of intellect, emotion, and volition or will. And that’s kind of what I was driving at.

I was wondering if AI was going to really see no need for human decision-making, judgment, or creativity. With all that’s gone on in our world, I’m not a conspiracy theorist, but check with me in five years. We’ll see what happens.

Okay, let’s talk about this. Anyway, that was kind of my short list of some of the things—not all of them necessarily—but some of that list is definitely unique to what kids are going through today that we probably weren’t.

A Hopeful Story and a Call to Simplicity

Danny:
Jim, can I offer a solution? Please? Because I’ve been giving you a lot of the problems I see and the change in our world. But let me tell you a quick good story.

I’ve had parents whose child in school just wasn’t cutting it. They struggled, couldn’t do well on tests. School was very hard for them. But some of these kids were the nicest, sweetest, most caring kids you’d ever meet.

I’d talk with the parents and say, “They’re struggling. I struggled in school. But you have the battle won—you’re raising a child who is going to be a good person.”

I had this quote on my wall in my office: “To educate a man in mind and not morals is to educate a menace to society.” – Theodore Roosevelt

I’d tell those parents, “You’re not going to have a menace to society. They may not be a rocket surgeon. But they’re going to do some great things in this world. They’ll find their way.”

That goes back to what I said earlier—that’s how it should be for kids. So my solution is: get back to basics.

Education, families, parents, grandparents—we need to get back to basics. Kids need to get outside and play. They need to interact with each other. They need to be praised not for being smart, but for effort. They’d need to try things and be allowed to fail.

The Gift of Failure – Letting Kids Take Risks

One book study we did was The Gift of Failure. It was for parents. How can a child learn to take risks if they’re never allowed to fail? If kids aren’t allowed to fail and learn from mistakes, they won’t take risks.

We need basics: interacting with each other, teamwork, manipulating things, getting out in nature. When I taught Shiloh, I didn’t just teach reading—we debated moral dilemmas, worked in groups, built projects. The focus wasn’t on the grade but on the teamwork and the presentation.

So when I say “back to basics,” I mean the basics of being human. We’ve lost so much of that through technology and test-driven outcomes.

Differentiating Between Chronic and Acute Anxiety

Jim:
That’s good. I know I sound like a preacher, but both you and Rachel need to take on this next question. I think it’s important for parents and others listening.

We obviously know the difference between chronic and acute. But when it comes to anxiety, talk about chronic anxiety and how to recognize it versus acute trauma. Give us an overview—what should we know, and how do we deal with both realities?

Rachel:
Anxiety is often a symptom of trauma—whether acute trauma like floods in Texas, or ongoing experiences like poverty, which is a trauma in itself because it creates constant difficulty.

Anxiety comes from our brains signaling, “I’m not safe, I need to be safe.” That’s functional anxiety. If you’re in a fire zone, anxiety pushes you to run to safety. That’s functional.

It becomes dysfunctional when you’re in an environment where nothing is actually putting you in danger, yet you feel unsafe.

Jim:
Let me say back what I think I’m hearing. If I see anxiety, I’m seeing a symptom of trauma. Then I’d ask: is this short-term and needs one kind of care, or chronic and needs a different approach?

Rachel:
Anxiety isn’t always related to trauma, but it can be. All of it needs care. From my perspective, relationships—good relationships—help with all of it.

There are techniques for challenging thoughts, but relationships are the best healers for anxious systems and traumas.

Good, healthy, supportive relationships tell us we’re safe, wanted, needed, and that we have things to contribute. When those are absent, we become more anxious.

That’s what I mentioned earlier—the tension kids feel in school or other places: “Am I acceptable? To my parents? To my peers? As who I am? Do I need to be somebody else?”

Creating Safe Environments in Schools and Beyond

Jim:
So connecting your comments to what Danny said about classrooms—he tried to create safety and community, and that in itself can be therapeutic for the undercurrent happening in us, especially while growing up.

Seeing the importance of healthy environments for kids is really important—studying how classrooms are handled, recess, home, neighborhoods, sports teams. All of those can become support mechanisms.

Jim:
Danny, what would you add?

Danny:
As Rachel was speaking, the phrase that kept hitting me was: “You’re not alone.”

Jim:
Oh yeah—that’s the big one. You’re not alone.

Danny:
Exactly. But technology makes kids be alone. They’re alone.

Jim, when you talked about your Cold War fears—going under desks, teachers pulling shades down for blasts—that was scary.

Or worse than that, asking a girl out in high school and she says no.

Jim:
Those girls are wicked. They hold us in their hands.

Danny:
Right! But my point is this: when you’re in school, if you’re nervous about asking a girl out, you walk with a friend down the hall, and he says, “You’re nervous? Me too.”

You’re in the moment together. You’re not alone. But when you’re online, typing things out—it’s not the same. Technology has forced kids to be alone.

We’re losing human interaction. Jim, earlier you asked, “What does AI not have that humans have?” I’d answer: love, compassion, empathy. That’s what we get from being with each other. And we’re losing that.

The Administrator’s View: Reclaiming Space for Humanity

Jim:
Brian—as an administrator, how do you communicate this to teachers? How do you give them permission to create environments like this?

Brian:
I oversee mental health and special education programs. Relationships and one-on-one connections with instructors or assistants are crucial.

Relationships are the foundation. Build them, work together, communicate, collaborate, and growth will happen.

Danny mentioned earlier: you may not be a rocket scientist, but you can figure it out by communicating. That’s key.

But COVID disrupted this. We now have a generation of children who didn’t get to ride the bus to kindergarten. Parents didn’t experience that with them.

In professional development, we tell teachers: put everything aside and focus on the needs of students in front of you. But it’s a different game now.

For example, we don’t even have space in a 7-hour school day for beneficial programs like DARE. They’re gone—we can’t fit them in.

As an administrator, I sometimes have to say, “We’ll be tested on this, so let’s teach this instead.” But honestly, students may benefit more from something like DARE, learning about drugs and alcohol, how to make good decisions.

We’re not doing that anymore. There’s conflict in education. Some teachers just say, “Tell me what to do, I’ll do it.” Students become compromised.

At professional development, I’ve seen pushback—teachers saying, “That doesn’t relate to me, I don’t know why I’m here. I’ll just do my to-do list.”

It’s tough to teach adults how to work with kids today, how kids think, and what we need to reconsider.

Safety in Isolation & Conditioning

Jim:
Rachel, one thought while you and Danny were speaking: don’t you think some kids actually find safety in isolation?

Rachel:
Yeah. Yeah. Until they don’t, I guess. I think there are very few total hermits. But there are plenty of kids where school can be hard with the amount of stimulation and things like that.

But all of us are relational. We’re social. Figuring out how a child fits in with that is key.

I had a rambunctious household growing up—three brothers and other people in and out. I spent a lot of time reading by myself. But I always enjoyed it most when I was reading in a room with other people.

Jim:
Huh. Yeah. I don’t think I could do that. If you’re in the room, I can’t concentrate. I don’t know why. I do it, but I’ve always wanted other people in the room in order to focus—because I grew up with people around.

Brian:
That’s fascinating, isn’t it? The power of our conditioning.

Jim:
We’re coming close to the end. I want to share some summary thoughts and then ask you guys one more question if you’d grace me with a little more time.

Parents, Pressure & Proverbs

Jim:
In the business world, we’re noticing a push against capitalism among younger generations. I don’t know how much is media hype and how much is real. But I never heard about it five years ago, before COVID.

I think fewer aspire to take risks. Remote work is definitely popular—it doesn’t seem to be going away. I wonder if it’s about independence and flexibility, or if it’s actually more isolation.

I want you guys to think about that for a future conversation. But here’s where I’d like to end.

Well-meaning parents are trying to figure all this out too. They’ve got everybody in their ear about what school their kids should go to. And Rachel, as you mentioned, we’ve got kids who’ve graduated college and their parents are still holding their hands.

Schedules are crazy. This was around when I was a youth pastor, but now it’s widespread. Sports, robotics, pickleball, chess—you name it. Kids have no space.

I wonder how many even know how to start a lawn mower. I’m not being judgmental—I just wonder.

Brian started off saying parents really need to study their kids. Rachel, you mentioned Proverbs 22:6: “Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it.”

Most Christians read that as a call toward morality. We’re not saying it doesn’t mean that, but a careful study shows it’s holistic. God bends every soul a certain way. The more we notice and affirm that, the more confidence and courage comes from it.

So what would you guys say to parents? How would you coach and encourage them, especially about mental health?

Coaching Parents & Closing Messages

Nurturing the Parent-Child Connection

Danny:
I’ll start. I was just listening to a Jordan Peterson podcast where he explained to parents: nobody in the world will you pour more of yourself into and love more than your child. That child feels the same way toward you.

What a gift that is if you can nurture it.

As a school counselor, parents would often ask me to talk to their child because “they won’t listen to me.” But I’d coach parents: listen to your child, validate their concerns, open communication.

The biggest thing is to make the time. The more you pour into them, the more rewarding it will be.

Rachel:
I would encourage parents to slow down and be curious. Model curiosity. Be curious about your children. Invite them to share.

Think specifically about what you want to cultivate. Many parents say, “I want them to be happy.” That puts pressure on kids, because then they feel like they have to be happy. They need space to have all of their emotions.

Also—notice your own anxiety. Manage it. Don’t make your anxiety your child’s anxiety.

Danny:
Let me add something. If I had a nickel for every time I told a parent, “Monitor your feelings—your kids are watching you.” If you’re anxious, they’ll be anxious.

I used the Rudy Giuliani example after 9/11: he said he had to purposely get calmer so everyone else would calm down. Parents need to do that in traumatic situations.

Jim:
I needed to hear that 30 or 35 years ago.

Making Conversations About School Meaningful

Brian:
Let me close with this. As the song says this time of year, “It’s the most wonderful time of the year”—not the holidays, but back-to-school.

It’s tough to be a parent, a child, a grandparent—more now than ever. The first day, the first week, the first month of school is especially tough.

We heard good feedback from our clinicians—strong messages for parents. The whole thing is: reach out. Be sure you’re in a good place so your child can be too.

Get to know people in the school system—your resources. Tap into them.

Children need to see adults work through relationships. They need models of resilience, problem-solving, and compassion.

I told a friend who’s a single mom: it’s your responsibility to teach your daughters everything you know—good, bad, and healthy. That’s how legacy continues. That’s how they thrive.

So I want to thank Rachel and Dan for joining us. These are bright people who’ve paid their dues, and I’m grateful they were part of this discussion.

How to Actually Talk to Your Kids About School

Jim:
One more question. I ask my child, “How was school today?” And I always get the same answer: “Good.” What do I do?

Rachel:
Don’t ask, “How was school?” Say, “Tell me something that happened today.” Even better—share your story first. “Here’s what happened to me today. Now tell me something that happened to you.”

Danny:
With younger kids, have them draw a picture of something that happened. You draw one too.

Jim:
That means I’ll have to manage my emotions when I see them draw a bully!

Danny:
I’d say, ask, “Tell me one thing you learned today.” Doesn’t matter what it is. Even if it’s just that your teacher likes pizza. It starts conversation.

Jim:
I’ll try that with my 40-year-old son and 38-year-old daughter and see how it goes.

Appreciate you guys so much. Thanks for being on the Today Counts Show. We’ll continue to promote good things to be an antidote to this mental health crisis for our kids.

Rachel:
Thanks, Jim.

Danny:
Thank you.

Brian:
Thank you so much.

Outro

Winston:
Hey, thank you for joining us on the Today Counts Show. We’ve got so much more planned for you. Stay tuned and stay connected on Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, and subscribe on YouTube.

And remember, today counts.

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