Episode 175: Can Prayer Change God’s Mind? Abraham’s Bold Conversation with God

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Today Counts Show Episode 175

Preview

Matt Martin: People take that general idea and they all of a sudden try to make themselves David with a slingshot in their hand. You’re not because there’s not a giant in the land. But what are the principles? What happened there? Even if you take the David and Goliath story, the promise of God there is in what David said, “You come to me with sword and spear, but I come to you in the name of the Lord.”

Jim Piper: We want to do something. It might even be a good thing. It’s our idea. And then what we do after that is when we run up against the wall, we get frustrated and we say, “God, please help me accomplish this.” We can kind of tell God is moving or God is working.

Appreciating our Donors

Winston Harris: Hey, before we jump into today’s episode, we want to thank all our donors and supporters who make The Today Counts Show possible. It’s through your generosity that we’re able to shape leaders through this content and this podcast. Be sure to like, subscribe, and follow wherever you find yourself coming across this content. Alright, let’s get to the podcast.

Introduction: Genesis 18 & Key Topics

Jim Piper: All right. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Today Counts show. You have just tuned into another chapter literally of the Genesis project. Today, I have with me Gary Harpst and Pastor Matt Martin. Winston, for whatever reason, is ditching us today. We’re looking at Genesis chapter 18. But before we get started, I want to give you some of the topics. There will be more than these topics. But I want to give you some of these topics so you can make a decision whether you think this next hour is good for you or not.

But it’s amazing how important hospitality is in leadership. ah We also are going to wrestle a little bit with God’s promises for leaders and for people. To be very specific, what promises that are given in the Bible can we apply to our own lives and what are really restricted, if you will, or dedicated to the people that God is talking to. I think that will be a good discussion.

God shares his plans with leaders, God carries out his plans through leaders. So to do that, he does share his plan. Leaders intercede for others. We are to be servants and people who stand to help people. Leaders need to be bold, but in our boldness, we need to be respectful. We’re going to see that. And then influence and we’ve heard this from John Maxwell. I mean, I think he’s the guy who has probably pounded the pavement the most on this principle. Leadership is influence, influence, influence more than it is position.

So that’s just kind of the some of the things that I think we’ll pull out. And speaking with Matt and Gary, I know we’ll have a lot more than that. I’m going to jump into this because it’s got 33 verses.

Abraham’s Hospitality and Encounter with the Lord

The first section I’m going to read is, let’s see, verses one through eight. It says, “The Lord appeared again to Abraham while he was camped near the oak grove belonging to Mamre. One day about noon, as Abraham was sitting at the entrance to his tent, he suddenly noticed three men standing nearby. He got up and ran to meet them, welcoming them by bowing low to the ground. ‘My lord,’ he said.”

By the way, that’s lowercase L in this case. “‘My lord,’ he said, ‘if it pleases you, stop here for a while. Rest in the shade of this tree while my servants get some water to wash your feet. Let me prepare some food to refresh you. Please stay a while before continuing on your journey.’ ‘All right. All right,’ they said. ‘Do as you have said.’ So Abraham ran back to the tent and said to Sarah, ‘Quick, get three measures of your best flour and bake some bread.’

Then Abraham ran out to the herd and chose a fat calf and told a servant to hurry and butcher it. When the food was ready, he took some cheese curds and milk and the roasted meat and he served it to them. As they ate, Abraham waited on them there beneath the trees.'”

Hospitality in the New Testament. I’m going to say it before Matt gets the opportunity to say it. In the New Testament, that’s also seems to be a requirement of leadership. But what do you guys think about this? You know, there’s these three men. Does Abraham recognize one of them to be the Lord yet or not? I mean, I don’t know. What do you guys think?

Recognizing God Moments and Leadership Principles

Gary Harpst: Interestingly, you said it was lowercase L. Mine has it as uppercase. I didn’t go look at the–

Jim Piper: Well, you know what, Gary, I probably made a mistake by saying that because now that I’m thinking about it, I’m reading out the NLT. And the NLT is not a literal translation. So it may be borrowing English grammar rules versus how we would in Christendom typically write it. But you know, that’s me. I see something and it jumps in my head and I speak it.

Gary Harpst: Well, we’re here to give you a safety net.

Jim Piper: Thank you.

Gary Harpst: So, if you assume that he does recognize it one of the questions is, well, on of the questions is it that made him recognize it? Didn’t it say, “He bowed himself to the earth”? I don’t know whether in that culture, you would do that to just a normal stranger — bowed to the earth. So, I don’t know that part.

Jim Piper: Matt, I see your wheels turning.

Identifying Theophanies and Leadership Moments

Matt Martin: Yeah, I read several books about this, I’m sure you guys have as well as this theophany moment of God showing up. And there was something that caused him to identify something different, something unique. There’s been a lot of things happen. So he’s had a lot of experiences already. What experiences that we’ve already been reading about in these first 17 chapters have led up to this that he recognized, “Hey, this was a God moment. This was a God.”

And I think as leaders, this is something we have to do. It’s recognizing the moments that really lead to the key moment. Because this is a key moment. Yeah, he’s being hospitable, which I love, you already hit it in the New Testament, Paul’s writing the Timothy. He tells that leaders must be hospitable, which it’s not hospitality as we would think of it. The term ready to receive someone into your home, which in cultural context makes perfect sense as homes used to be built closer to the road. People traveled, lived closer to main traveled roads for this reason because there was no Motel six or Hampton Inn to stay in. They’d be ready to receive.

So obviously Abrams here ready to receive, but he recognizes something different. And I think from a leadership principle, paying attention to the moment and to the things that are happening will lead you up when there are these key pivotal moments. Because what’s about to happen is quite amazing what unfolds here in the rest of this chapter. There’s a lot of opinions on how he knew that that was the Lord, just everything from what he saw to what he felt, what he experienced, to where it happened here in Mamre. I mean, there’s just a lot going on. So we could unpack that, but I love the leadership principle in it.

Spiritual Maturity and Learning to Recognize God’s Work

Jim Piper: I’m not going to agree for agreeable sake. As you were kind of reaching for your ideas, Matt, I started thinking about Henry Blackaby when you know, when he was talking about spiritual maturity. I think this would be very encouraging for all leaders to think about the value of growing as a believer. Because Blackaby said that a lot of us in our youth, or in our youthful passions, we want to do something. It might even be a good thing and it’s our idea. And then what we do after that is when we run up against the wall, we get frustrated, and we say, “God please help me accomplish this.”

I know how many times I have prayed that prayer, God bless this, God bless that. Versus as we get older, and wiser, I think all three of us can say since on this particular episode, we’re not new to this game called leadership. So I will say it this way. We can kind of tell whether God is moving or God is working, and we recognize it more, as well as when God is shutting doors and when he’s moving us right or moving us left, when to speak when did not to speak.

This is the benefit of walking with God for a longer time. So to your exact point, well, he’s had encounters with the Lord before. So whether he recognized him from a distance, there was something that he knew was different about this situation. I think that’s really good insight.

Running Toward God’s Presence and Honoring Opportunities

Matt Martin: Yeah. Well, if you look at verse two, it says, “When he saw them, he’s hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them.” I think, again, I know we’re leaning in on the leader side of this, but there as leaders in nonprofits, in churches, in business, as Christian leaders, when we recognize God is there, whatever there is for you, whatever that moment, man, running towards it is a posture that changes everything.

Because when I, we’ve all and everybody listening here has had those moments where you knew, “Okay, I need to go chase that down. I’m going to go after that.” And you know, it is a godly moment. It is a godly opportunity. It changes your mindset and your posture of what can be accomplished and what can be done. I’ve read through this several times, getting ready for today. But as I read that just now, as you read it, it just jumped out as he saw it and he jumped up and went to meet them.

Slowing Down and Building Relational Spaces

Jim Piper: Yeah, I hesitate to leave this section too quickly because there really is– It says he was sitting in the front of his tent, right? Sitting in front of his tent. And he observes them. He runs. He bows. Yeah, he definitely knew that something was up, right? It’s almost like he was almost wondering, “Gosh, when am I going to hear from the Lord again?” You know, almost anticipating that maybe.

Gary Harpst: You know, there’s another, it’s subtle because the culture was so different and the technology is so different. But this is not a hurried experience. I mean, how long does it take to go get a calf?

Matt Martin: Oh, so good.

Jim Piper: Right.

Gary Harpst: Prepare it? Cook it? I mean, there’s hours and hours going on here. And I just think in today’s world, we have such a variety of communications and interruptions and stuff that you become a little more impatient. There they were glad to see somebody.

Recognizing and Honoring Relational Opportunities

Matt Martin: Well, what about the honor piece as well of honoring those opportunities that are placed in front of me? I mean, I look at this, what we’re doing with this podcast. I’d never met Gary before and now I feel Gary is, you know. I feel like he’s one of my best friends. We still haven’t met in person because of the way with technology of what we’re doing, but Jim, you created an opportunity and a space for a relationship to be made. And I honestly feel like I could call Gary any given day. And if he didn’t answer, he’d call me back pretty quick.

Gary Harpst: Yeah, that’s true.

Matt Martin: So I’ve taken a chance here to honor this relationship of, I didn’t really know what was happening. You know, again, this is a very obvious one, right? But how many times in our businesses and in our leadership and in our opportunities do we miss out because we don’t take an opportunity or a chance with that opportunity to honor the opportunity of the relationship that’s right in front of us.

Sacred Pause: Recognizing the Divine in the Ordinary

Jim Piper: Yeah, really good. You know, Gary, to your point about roasting. In our timeframe, this sounds like more of a retreat.

Matt Martin: Yeah, yeah.

Jim Piper: Right? I mean, this is just what they, what Abraham did. And so, that’s very interesting. I think the other thought that I have before moving on is it made me start thinking about, I can’t say I’ve ever experienced a theophany, but I can say that I’ve been in different situations at different places where it stopped me in my tracks. And I said, “This is a God thing. This is a God moment. And this is really good. This is something that I don’t want to walk away from right away.”

It did cause me pause. and to kind of recount those times. And if I were to share them, which I won’t because we don’t have time, as you guys might some of them, for some people might say, “Really? You would call that a god moment? I would say, “Oh, yeah, I would call that a god moment, even though that might feel real silly to you.” And then there are other things that I would say that then you go, “Yeah, that’s really good.”

Sarah’s Laughter and God’s Promise

But then this continues on. So that’s just a great discussion about hospitality, recognizing God in your front yard and wow. But then it takes a turn here in verse 9. “‘Where is Sarah, your wife?’ they asked him.” So when they said they, I mean, that sounds almost like a conversation. So someone asked the question and some said, yeah. “And then Abraham says, ‘In the tent.’ Then one of them said, ‘About this time next year, I will return and your wife Sarah will have a son.'”

You know, I didn’t really catch this verse until I had read it several times. I just had assumed that it was the Lord who was talking. But at least the scholars that put the NLT together, they don’t identify exactly which of the three said that they’re coming back. It says, “Then one of them said, ‘About this time next year, I will return and your wife, Sarah, will have a son.’ Now, Sarah was listening to this conversation from the tent nearby. And since Abraham and Sarah were both very old and Sarah was long past the age of having children, she laughed silently to herself.”

You know, sometimes I read too fast, right? Because it took me two or three times to even I assumed she snickered. I assumed it was out loud. Sometimes you read too fast, and you, and you don’t read things enough. Silently, which I think comes in later here. “She laughs silently to herself. ‘How could a worn out woman like me have a baby,’ she thought. ‘And when my and when my master, my husband, is also so old.’ Then the Lord said to Abraham, ‘Why did Sarah laugh?'”

God’s All-Knowing Response

Gary Harpst: He didn’t even hear it.

Jim Piper: Right. “‘Why did she say, can an old woman–‘” So he’s even reading her mind, “‘Can an old woman like me have a baby?'” And then this very famous quote that’s in some of our songs today, “‘Is anything too hard for the Lord. About a year from now, just as I told you, I will return.'” And now it sounds like maybe it was the Lord who’s speaking, “‘I will return and Sarah will have a son.’ Sarah was afraid, so she denied that she had laughed. But he said, ‘That is not true. You did laugh.'”

So obviously, there must have been some more conversation that occurred there.

Gary Harpst: Notice three times he emphasizes Sarah, your wife. Obviously, he knew Sarah was because she wasn’t introduced prior to this. He comes out and says, “Hey, where’s your wife Sarah?” So he knows her name, not just your wife, but he knows her name. So it’s just another affirmation that it’s a theophany.

Understanding the Promises of God

Matt Martin: Well, I would think that at this point Abraham figures out this is God. Because if you go back to chapter 17, it’s almost verbatim, the same thing when he and God met and discussed the covenant. And they called her by her changed name, not Sarai. They called her Sarah because her name change happened a chapter before. And at that point, it was another confirmation that this is a holy moment. You’ve kind of alluded to that, this is a God moment for me.

Private Promises Become Public Testimonies

Abraham’s knowing what he’s experienced with God in a private conversation is now being held in a public familial conversation. What was between he and God is now Sarah’s hearing this, now the others, the servants are hearing this conversation with these three men that have shown up and Abraham’s thinking, “Okay, apparently this is how it’s gonna go. This is God just reiterating his promise.”

For me as a leader, this scripture jumps out to me because I can lean more on Sarah’s side of the story probably than I can Abraham’s side of the story. And I’m like, “Really?” You know, I will laugh and I will chuckle at and sometimes I’m doing it silently. ‘Cause one, I’m not even sure it can happen. One of my, this is probably not uncommon, but it feels hypocritical for me as a pastor and as a preacher and as a man of faith that, for you two right here, Gary and Jim, I have more faith for what God can do for you than what he’ll actually do for me.

And so while I proclaim faith in people’s lives and declare it boldly, I will declare boldly, Gary, if you had a God will perform, you know, fill in the blank. But when it’s my turn for me, I’m just like, “Well, I doubt that’s even possible to happen. God, I mean, I hear what you’re saying, but God, have you looked around at my circumstances? Have you looked around at my– I’m not capable of doing this?” And so we began to–

Leadership and the Struggle with Personal Faith

So I understand. In a leadership position, I understand where Sarah’s coming from and that I’ve been running the numbers here and, none of this adds up. None of this is gonna add up.

Jim Piper: I think I might know what you’re talking about.

Matt Martin: Her age, right?

Jim Piper: Let me ask you two a question. Here’s my question. It’s kind of like Matt just handed me the baton on the relay. I think that believing God to do great things with and through someone more than yourself, it’s probably more common than you might think. Especially when you actually see somebody who just gets blessed a ton and, you say those weird things to yourself like, “Really?” I mean, you might even self-justify in some ways and compare like, “I think I’m a better baseball player than him. So why didn’t I get to start on second base?” I’ll bring it down to that level.

Applying God’s Promises to Our Lives

Jim Piper: This is a concern I have. God makes a promise to Abraham and to Sarah, that’s clear. And he’s going to see it through. It has nothing to do with Abraham and Sarah. We’ve already established that. This is God doing what God’s going to do, and he chose Abraham and Sarah. We can conjecture as to why he chose him, whatever.

But in today’s Christian culture, and even in today’s new age culture, it seems as though we will reach into the goody bag of promises, whether we get them out of Scripture or out of positive thinking, and we will claim those things for ourselves, or we’ll even teach them for ourselves. Now, I think that would be pretty hard to do with the promise that has given to Abraham and nowhere in Scripture do I see a justification for me believing that God is going to create kings through my lineage and all of these things that God has said.

But where do you think we can identify promises in the Bible and apply them to us? And when do we filter some of these promises that have been given to other people that may not be there for us to grab and say our own? Let’s take for example, the prayer of Jabez. For those listening, that’s an Old Testament prayer by a man who’s very bold in his prayers, what he asked for God to do.

And I certainly don’t think there’s anything wrong with stealing his prayer and making it your own prayer to that. But am I making sense that sometimes I hear a promise that was given in a certain context and then someone reaching in grabbing that promise and then teaching others that they can claim that promise as if it’s literally from God to them?

Distinguishing Hope from Faith in Real Life

Matt Martin: I have a very strong opinion on that as well, but Gary if you want to add to it.

Gary Harpst: Well, I think it’s a big problem for all of us is deciding what is of faith. I remember early on in our business career, we came to the conclusion that there’s a difference between hope and faith. When God declares something, it’s as certain as whether it’s a million years from now or not, it’s a certain, it’s more certain than anything man can do. There are other cases where we see where God has done something for someone and we hope that he would do that for us. Like this being able to get pregnant when you’re not is a hope, but God clearly came and told them this is going to happen.

So faith, the reality of faith, faith is the substance of things hoped for. When God says it, if we’ve grown and matured, then it’s real. But when I’m hoping for it, it’s not as real. You know, it’s “I wish it, but I can’t know it.” So this translated to think conversations in our business early on is we need more capitals and we pray that God is going to– Does it take greater faith to ask for more money, borrow more money, or does it take greater faith to say, “Well, we’ll live within the revenue God has given us”?

Applying Faith to Business Decisions

They’re both different types of faith. Right? And there’s a clearer statement in Scripture that says don’t borrow money. You know, I’m not saying ever. There’s exceptions to it. Maybe I’m not answering your question directly, but I think it’s an important question. How do you read the Word and how do you parse what is an unequivocal eternal promise, “I will never leave you or forsake you”? Was he talking to his disciples or is he talking to us?

Jim Piper: That’s a great example. You know, that’s a great example one. And Matt, before you go kind of responding to Gary, it’s like what I partly what I heard there was it’s a bit of a paradox, isn’t it? I mean, God has God has definitely given us a lot of room to do and to believe. But going back to what takes more faith to raise capital, to give away equity, you didn’t say that, but that’s another one or to bootstrap this thing.

Weighing Capital Risks with Personal Convictions

It might be based upon the individual or the team’s deep rooted convictions of something that they believe. For example, they might believe that uh the capital equations allow you to do things that you’re not going to be able to do otherwise. And so it’s an advantage and it’s a broader shared risk. They can justify it through that. Bootstrapping is just as dangerous because as we all know, one of the major reasons companies fail is because they don’t have capital. But at least I’m not–

This person says, “I do not want to jeopardize. I don’t want to have to go back to my family and friends that I borrowed from and say we’ve lost our money.” So there’s a deeper conviction there and I forget what the other one was. Oh, equity. Well, the problem with giving away equity is you can never really take it back. So that’s like a long term deal. I like the–

Gary Harpst: Well, we’ve been through every one of those choices. And at one time or another, we concluded each one of was right.

Jim Piper: Yeah, but that was a great example, because someone could pull scripture and justify each one of those pretty easily, they could proof text. And that’s kind of what I’m you getting at. Matt has–

The Difference Between Eternal Promises and Wisdom-Based Faith

Gary Harpst:  I think the delineation I want to use in these examples, the delineation I would like to propose is that there’s a difference between me having faith or a belief that, “Okay, wisdom says I can borrow this money or get this equity and it’s the right thing to do.” That’s one kind of wisdom-based faith. I think this is going to work out. It’s another to say, “I will not leave you or forsake you,” or something.

“Jesus has died for my sins, all of them, past, present, and future, undeclared.” I mean, there’s just no– Either you believe it or not, and it’s rock solid. That’s a different thing than me just sort of by wisdom thinking, “I believe this is the right thing.” And so it’s a special case when God really declares something as clear as He did to Abraham. I mean, He sends three messengers, He says it twice, “She is gonna have a baby. I don’t care what you think, I don’t care if you’re laughing at me, it’s gonna happen.”

Rooting Our Beliefs in Clear Promises of God

Jim Piper: Well, I think that’s a big point too, right? I mean, how many times can you point to this actually happening in history? Right? I know Matt’s got some thoughts on this, at least I hope.

Matt Martin: For the sake of time, I’ll try to go as fast. Second Corinthians chapter one says, “For the promises of God are yes and amen.” We can build our life, we can stand on the promises of God. It said the promises of God are those, not the promises God made to Joshua, not the promises God made to Moses, not the promises God made to Abraham, but the promises of God.

So we can go through the scripture and we find the absolute true, yes, and amen, promises of God. We stand, we build our life on those. Similar to, I don’t believe this, nor am I a fan of replacement theology. The church did not replace Israel. Romans is very clear. Right now, everybody talks about the end of the world. “Oh, well, what’s the American church doing?” It don’t matter. Scripturally, what is Israel doing? We’re the grafted in branch. It can’t be any more clear. We’re, we’re grafted into what’s happening.

Misapplying Stories Like David and Goliath

It’s a bigger topic, but people take that general idea and they all of a sudden try to make themselves David with a slingshot in their hand. You’re not, because there’s not a giant in the land. What are the principles? What happened there? Even if you take the David and Goliath story. The promise of God there is in what David said, “You come to me with sword and spear, but I come to you in the name of the Lord.” So what am I going to do? I’m going to attack everything in my life with the name of the Lord.

But yeah, this extracting out and saying God promised Abraham a child through Sarah at way too old of an age doesn’t give the 90-year-old person that wants a baby to say, “Well–” But what are the promises of– Because there are hundreds and just pick them by topic of promises through scripture that are God’s yes and amen. If you go back, I went to the scripture in 2 Corinthians 1:18, Paul, he told them, he said, “But as surely as God is faithful.”

Again, Gary, to kind of what your point was pointing to there. You know, the promise there is that God is faithful. I build my faith through the story that was told. I don’t build my faith through the details of what happened directly to them. And he goes on to even break that down in second Corinthians. But I can keep going, but for the sake of time, I just– When that happens, I’m always careful to come back to it and say, “It’s the promises of God that are yes and amen.” We have to be careful that we don’t insert ourselves into scripture every time. That’s a dangerous theology.

Focus on What You Know, Not What You Don’t

Gary Harpst: I think it really helps to do what you’re saying. When people are confused, instead of focusing on what you don’t know, drop back to what you do know. Like enumerating the things that we know are unequivocal, universal principles of God, don’t lie. Just don’t lie. It really cleans up your life and your decision-making. I remember listening to David Green, who’s the Hobby Lobby founder, and he said, “My life got a lot simpler when I quit worrying about the consequences and just did what was right.

Jim Piper: Yeah, athletes do much better. In the coaching I’ve had with athletes, if they can get to that mental space where they, they don’t focus on what can happen, what might happen, and they play, they just play, they’re just much more successful. I mean, I think in–

Scripture as God’s Redemption Story

Matt Martin: Well, I think people forget the reason of the Bible sometimes. It’s God’s love story to humanity. It’s his redemption story of mankind. Then we’re going to piecemeal it out to fit our, to make us feel better in our context. That’s not why it was written. There are pieces of that along the way to encourage me in my journey. But the purpose of scripture is that it will withstand time. The grass will wither, the flower will fade, but the word of God will stand forever.

And so it is so much beyond, it’s so much bigger and so much beyond my current trial and trouble that I’m going through that I want to cherry pick something out. Again, we lose context of what the scripture is even there for.

“Is Anything Too Difficult for the Lord?”

Gary Harpst: A promise or an eternal promise to hear is this verse that says, “Is anything too difficult for the Lord?” Remind yourself of that. We have a God that can do anything. Now it doesn’t mean–

Matt Martin: The purpose of that is the question, not the circumstance.

Gary Harpst: That’s right.

Matt Martin: Because you could put anything too hard for God in front of any problem in front of us. God just goes to show us one that seemed quite impossible to build our faith and say, “Well, look, here’s a story of what I did. Then even from that, I created a whole nation and Kings,” and like Jim was talking about. The thing to extract here is exactly what you just said, Gary, is that question, is anything too hard for God?

A Personal Story of Faith in Business

Gary Harpst: You’re going to run completely out of time, Jim, but a real story here. When we started our business, we dedicated it to the Lord. We called it the Lord’s business. And I felt, really, one of the few times in my life that I sensed that God was giving me a clarity, almost a calling. We got about a year into that business and we ran into some technical problems we said we could never solve.

I came home, I was single at the time and I came home and thought, “Maybe this is coming to an end.” I flipped open my Bible and I started reading, and that’s the verse I read. It says, “Is anything too difficult for the Lord?” Now, he didn’t say he was going to fix the problem. He just changed my mindset that, oh, there’s nothing here that can’t be overcome if it’s God’s will.

Just speaking to your listeners, the power of God’s Word to guide you, to strengthen you when you’re getting all off, twisted around and think nothing can happen, God can do anything. And it changed the course of a business. We went forward. We didn’t quit. And so the power of God’s word.

The Promise of Grace and Salvation

Jim Piper: That’s good, guys. My mind went to, everybody wants to believe in heaven, but not everybody believes in heaven. If you believe in heaven and you believe in God, the Creator, one of the promises of Scripture is that salvation, meaning– People say, “Salvation from what?” Well, to me, that’s pretty obvious. Salvation from death. The Bible teaches that there can be a second death. There’s salvation from that. But that comes by grace. It comes by grace.

So that’s a promise in Scripture that when we encounter the gospel and understand the gospel and receive the gospel, the promise is we don’t have to be bound by all the scorekeeping and all of the regrets and shame because it’s already been established. Even if we got our acts together somehow and our batting average was 9999, it’s not good enough. The promise is God’s grace. And that applies to everyone who would like to receive it.

Grace in the Story of Sarah’s Pregnancy

Gary Harpst: Think how this story is a story of grace because if she had been 30 years old saying, “You’re going to have a baby,” what’s the deal? But salvation is basically bringing life to a dead heart.

Jim Piper: Only something God can do.

Gary Harpst: That’s right. And two 90-year-olds or however old they were, that’s great.

Jim Piper: Well, let’s take a stab at this next section. So far, we’ve talked about this idea of hospitality, seeing God at work, joining him at work. And then we wrestled with the promises of God, how they apply to all of us. How do they apply to some of us? And I think that was a good discussion. So we’re in verse 16. This next section, I can read through. Actually, I think I can quickly read through the balance of the chapter because it is a bit of a dramatic narrative that just kind of flows to the end.

Leaders as Mediators and Advocates

It says, “Then the men got up from their meal and started on towards Sodom. Adam went with–” I’m sorry, not Adam, Abraham. “Abraham went with them.” I’m going, wait, wait, how did Adam get there? “Abraham went with them part of the way. ‘Should I hide my plan from Abraham?’ the Lord asked. ‘For Abraham will become a great and mighty nation and all the nations of the earth will be blessed through him. I have singled him out so that he will direct his sons and their families to keep the way of the Lord and do what is right and just. Then I will do all that I have promised.’

So the Lord told Abraham, ‘I have heard that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah are extremely evil, and that everything they do is wicked.'” Verse 21 is very interesting. “‘I am going down to see whether or not these reports are true,'” as if he didn’t know. “‘Then I will know.” We can make a comment on that later. So I better keep going. Verse 22. “The two other men went on toward Sodom.” They were clearly identified as angels later on.

“But the Lord remained with Abraham for a while. Abraham approached him and said, ‘Will you destroy both innocent and guilty alike? Suppose you find 50 innocent people there within the city. Will you still destroy it and not spare it for their sakes? Surely you wouldn’t do such a thing destroying the innocent with the guilty? Why you would be treating why you would be treating the innocent and the guilty exactly the same? Surely you wouldn’t do that. Should not the judge of all the earth do what is right?'”

Abraham’s Bold Intercession for Sodom

That’s somehow the way I talked to God sometimes. It makes me kind of nervous reading that. Verse 26. “And the Lord replied, ‘If I find 50 innocent people in Sodom, I will spare the entire city for their sake.’ Then Abraham spoke again. ‘Since I have begun, let me go on and speak further to my Lord, even though I am but dust and ashes. Suppose there are only 45. Will you destroy the city for the lack of five?’ And the Lord said, ‘I will not destroy it. If I find 45.’

Then Abraham pressed his request further. ‘Suppose there are only 40.’ And the Lord replied, ‘I will not destroy it if there are 40.’ ‘Please don’t be angry, my Lord,’ Abraham pleaded. Let me speak. Suppose only 30 are found.’ And the Lord replied, ‘I will not destroy it if there are 30.’ Then Abraham said, ‘Since I have dared to speak to the Lord, let me continue. Suppose there are only 20.’ And the Lord said, ‘Then I will not destroy it for the sake of 20.’

Finally Abraham said, ‘Lord, please do not get angry. I will speak but once more. Suppose only 10 are found there.’ And the Lord said, ‘Then for the sake of the 10, I will not destroy it.’ The Lord went on his way when he had finished his conversation with Abraham and Abraham returned to his tent.”

Reflections on Abraham’s Leadership

Gary Harpst: Anyway, the clear thing is he’s advocating for the innocent.

Matt Martin: I like how he’s not even given a chance to go find out if they’re actually 50 or 40 or 30. Like, “Oh, you agreed to that? Okay, well, what if there’s only 20?” I mean, it’s somewhere between funny and entertaining to like, wow, scary that he just kept having this conversation and God just kept agreeing. Like what his number? Was 10 the  number the whole time?

Jim Piper: That’s what I’m saying. What I’m saying is they both knew. They both knew.

Matt Martin: Was he too scared? Too scared to just come out?

Jim Piper: They both knew. Abraham knew in his gut, but the Lord knew. Right? Because Abraham’s wondering, “Well, will Lot even be considered one of the ten?”

Matt Martin: Let’s do the math here. So how many daughters, I have to look. How many daughters does Lot have?

Jim Piper: I think it’s two. Was it two?

Matt Martin: I think it’s two. Yeah, we’ll get there. I mean, the stories in Chapter 19. We’ll look at it next. But let’s just do the math.

Jim Piper: Plus two husbands.

Matt Martin: Yeah, so you got four. Then you got Lot and his wife. He becomes a monument of our own and not and not at the good. So we’re at six.

Jim Piper: They didn’t make it.

Matt Martin: He started like he didn’t even 10 times it. He just knew they hadn’t evangelized the city. And so we’re like 50. Maybe he heard himself say it and thought, “Oh dear God, at best there’s six. Maybe not that many.” And so he starts at 50. Well, surely there’s 50 people that’ve been impacted by these six. And then he just keeps works his way down. And so he gets all the way down to 10. Well, maybe they went on a each one reach one campaign and maybe there’s 10 of them there. Wow, what a negotiation tool.

Leadership Lessons from Abraham’s Advocacy

Jim Piper: You know what I love about this story is it reminds me that leaders are mediators, leaders are advocates. When a leader gets frustrated with his or her people, they do. We get frustrated with them. But at the same time, a good leader loves his people. And so it takes me back to Moses. Remember Moses getting in between God and the people? He fought for the people, even though he was frustrated with the people.

He even reached 10. Didn’t reach 10 because again, I’m not sure if Lot’s family would have been included in the 10. I don’t know. But what I really appreciate here about Abraham is he not only interceded, but he was bold. He was respectful, but he was bold. And he kept fighting for the people. Don’t you find it humorous, you guys, that he’s pleading with the Creator of all things, reminding the Creator that he’s just and good, reminding the Creator that he needs to think about this? He really needs to think about this. That takes boldness.

Gary Harpst: Backing up to even a more basic advocacy as a leader, but in verse 17, God’s talking to himself or to those other two people, “Should I hide this from Abraham since he will surely become a great and mighty nation?” Look at what it adds. It says, “In him all the nations of the earth we bless.” And then in 19, “I’ve chosen him so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice. So the Lord may bring upon Abraham what he has spoken about him.”

This idea that he is in the role of a leader for his family, he is called to command his children and his household to walk in the ways of the Lord. The attributes he describes, righteousness and justice, are the very things that Abraham is using to argue with God about.

Accountability, Calling, and Reverence in Leadership

Jim Piper: Would we be better leaders if we remembered what Paul taught in Romans about positions of leadership? That those that are in positions of leadership, they didn’t get there on their own merit, God put them there? And if I recognized that whatever role I play in leadership wasn’t by my own, truly wasn’t by my own effort, but it was God placing me there, would I have more reverence for it? Would I embrace it more? I don’t know.

I think that even in corporate America, leaders might be tempted to think that this is all them. They got this. And not realizing the responsibility that has been delegated to them by God. You know, I’ve known business leaders who would not call themselves believers, but they are God-fearers who did believe that they were going to somehow someday give an account to God for their leadership. They wouldn’t call themselves Sunday school going, church going people, but they still had this fear and reverence for the calling of leadership. But what’s even more amazing to me is who asked Abraham to do this?

Gary Harpst: Yeah, well, don’t you think that’s part of the reason Abraham was in this role because he had the nature to believe in God and righteousness to begin with? He was chosen because he had faith in God, and right here it says he’s righteous and just or should be. So Abraham’s just living in the calling that he was given.

Boldness, Responsibility, and Relationship with God

Matt Martin: I think as leaders, this portion of scripture shows us that difficulty and difficult conversations and difficult decisions are a part of what we’re going to do as a leader. I mean, in this case, he’s negotiating with God, but he sees a problem. He’s made aware of the problem. I mean, I love the question. Gary went back and pulled it out. You know, “Do we even tell him about this?” It’s pretty major.

Jim Piper: He’s on a need to know basis.

Matt Martin: Yeah, a pretty major thing happening here. Let’s look at it as a leader. Abraham learns about the problem. And when he learned about the problem, he began to go to work, one advocating absolutely, but also try working on it, mitigating, working to a solution, working to what’s a favorable outcome. How can we accomplish what we need to accomplish? How can we get done what we need to get done?

There’s a strong leadership principle here because Abraham, he had an option to say, “Look, we’ve already had this conversation about Lot. He made his choice and he made his bed, he gets to lie in it, whatever happens, happens.” But as a leader, he knew, no, there’s an issue and it’s within my realm of working on this, that I’m going to do my best to work to a solution of this.

Abraham’s Track Record and a Leader’s Relationship with God

Jim Piper: As far as I’m concerned, as if I’m anybody to do this, but I give Abraham a really good report card. I go back to the beginning where God tells him to leave his land, to go to a place that he doesn’t know. He does that. Damine hits the land. And we can agree or disagree with his decision, but he takes action, he moves his family towards Egypt. And yes, he gets in another situation where he tries to strategize the survival of his family. He didn’t do it probably the best way to do it is by telling– There’s no such thing as a half lie. But in this case, it really is kind of a half lie, saying that his wife was his sister.

And then of course coming back, letting a lot take perhaps the choice land. And then of course, rescuing lot. He went to war. And now he recognizes the Lord working in his life, goes out, does his hospitality. Now here he is fighting for people once again. I don’t know. He seems to be a pretty stand up guy to me. And pretty powerful.

Gary Harpst: I guess we can assume from this dialogue that just like David did, it’s okay to be open with God and to speak back to Him, His own nature and character in our arguments, to say, “Well, God, you are a just God. Would you do that?” Because we see that pattern, okay to be open with God.

Conviction, Friction, and Integrity in Leadership

Jim Piper: Yeah, I spoke to a leader this morning on during one of my walks and we were talking about her circle. The question came, do you want somebody in your inner circle who’s going to fight for what they believe in even though it causes some friction in your group or someone who just goes with the flow? We really have to deal with that because none of us likes friction. Especially if we’re in the first chair, we just want people to go along with it and do it.

At the same time, winning teams they really do have convictions and it takes a while to align all those convictions towards the same mission here. Ans so I think that the Lord does want honesty from us. He wants a relationship.

Gary Harpst: That’s what a real relationship is.

Jim Piper: Well, as we know, in the next chapter, Sodom gets destroyed and we continue to learn about Abraham’s nephew. I really appreciate you guys joining me with this Genesis project. Pretty soon we’re going to be in chapter 20. It’s going to feel like we’re making some progress.

The Power of God’s Word

Gary Harpst: Reading this verse, “Is anything too difficult for me?” just brought back memories from something that happened to me years and decades ago. It strengthened me.

Jim Piper: Well, maybe we can encourage leaders to do the same thing, Gary? If you’re listening to this as a leader and you’re not a church goer, maybe you haven’t been going to church or whatever and you’re wondering what the relevance is, we would probably challenge you to get yourself a copy of the Bible and just start reading it on your own. And you’ll be surprised. You begin a relationship with God. It’s amazing. You know, God doesn’t just live inside the protection of stained-glass windows. He’s with us all the time.

Outro

Winston Harris: Thank you for joining us on The Today Counts Show. We got so much more planned for you so stay tuned and stay connected on Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, and subscribe on YouTube. Remember, today counts.
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